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Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: stevene (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 10:44

Martwhit

Im confused. How can you blame a defence coach, as you constantly do, when we're playing away from home against a good side who have 80% possession for the first 25-30 mins? We all know your views about forshaw but you will be blaming him for global warming next. You don't win an away game against Quins with 20% possession for the majority of the first half. Christ we couldn't put any phases together and the first time we got in their 22 was when Haley scored!

Last night was summed up, for me, on about 20-25 mins when we had the ball in our 22. Harrison took the ball to the line and then tried a one handed, out of the back his hand, offload to Jones. That was a loosehead prop doing that in his own 22 when we had hardly any ball and already behind on the scoreboard. That, first and foremost, is a player mentality issue. A number of players need to man up and do their jobs which, quite frankly, they didn't do last night. Coaches can coach all they want but if we want to win away from home against Quinn you can't play like a sub standard baa baa team.

For me the only players who played well last night were Haley, evans, Strauss and ross of the starting Xv. De Klerk was targeted and had an off night. Those who performed particularly poorly:

Jennings is in the team to run straight, he forgot that for 60 mins.
Aj looked rushed and indecisive. O'Connor is likely our starting 10 from now.
Solomona positioning was consistently poor on defence.
Ostrikov needs to learn to catch.
Jones still has his wobbles at the lineout.
Harrison needs to remember he is a loosehad prop.
Tarus got took to the cleaners by marler and couldn't deal with him not scrummaging straight when ref was on the other side. Needed to realise the touch judge wasn't spotting that and would be pinged if he collapsed it as result.


The team was clearly knackered defensively in the second half due to the amount of defending they had to do in the first 40. But maybe that's Forshaws fault as well?

The coaches need to front up but so do a number of players away from home. Their performances were not good enough. That's not fixed with our home form it's mentality taking responsibility away from home which a number didn't do.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: Bradwall Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 10:49

Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
Yes Curry tackles

There was one moment of brilliance from Smith when Curry was left for dead. It should have resulted in a try for Harlequins, but it didn't. The Currys are good tacklers when play is in the modern idiot, to quote Benny Hill - when the player who has the ball looks for someone to run into. They are both very physical and very able tacklers when brute force is the thing. It's much more difficult to tackle someone when one can't read where he is going. I have long hoped that the game would move back to favour players such as Smith, but while there is so much stall placed in retaining ball for twenty or thirty phases the risk takers don't seem to be welcomed in the main.

I turned the coverage off before Dimes was interviewed. Really there is no point in hearing it. I could write his scripts for him - plus ša change and all that. That said, of course it has to be the same, every recent away game seems to have gone the same way. I wonder how many times lessons have to be learned before they are actually learned.

Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate. You only have to go back a few months to see how the Lions bottled up New Zealand by having a system that everyone understood and worked to.

The worry must be the inconsistency and I agree with posts above that the issue is a psychological/team dynamic one. Wins build confidence but shipping 40 odd points can only lead to insecurity in both the systems and on a personal level. I suspect the DOR is too set in his ways to bring in help and so you will not see much improvement I fear.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: Shep23 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 10:53

Nothing will change until we sign a big unit to play in the seconds with Evans.

Beaumont is not up to scratch at 5 and does not look big or strong enough. Would be tempted rotate him through the backrow at 6/8 and use him off the bench. I want him to work at lock but it's just not working. Problem is we don't have the lock depth - that should have been remedied in the summer.

Then we need a replacement loosehead who we can trust to come on for Harrison. Maybe someone who offers another ball carrying option.

AJ does not work with the Sale patterns and isn't the man we need at 10 to take us forward

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: MartWhit (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 11:41

Stevene,

sorry guys, our defensive system is just rubbish.

- caught out on 30 seconds and zero phases with a simple chip behind because we parked big forwards in the cnetres
- Ended up with faf defending the wing slot after 2 phases
- nearly got caught by another simple chip for phase 4
- poor tackle technique gifts penalty after 3 minutes.
- preposterously lucky not to give away a try after 4 minutes when caught narrow.....again

quins didnt do anything to pull it apart, it just unravels all on its own.

Thats my precise analysis of just the first 5 minutes posted earlier in the thread. I could pull apart the rest, but I dont have the will.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: MartWhit (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 11:43

and as you highlight, Solomona was a shambles in defence. We had a 4 on 2 defensive advantage for Vissers first try and he still got caught infield and lobbed with a chip.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: ashtonshark (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 13:33

We were still getting caught out by the chip over/kick through in the 2nd half. Surely we should have seen that it was a deliberate Quins tactic and adjusted accordingly. Again just not smart rugby



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2017 13:33 by ashtonshark.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: MartWhit (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 13:44

the essence of defence is firstly to prevent the opponent scoring, which we are patently failing to do to the tune of 50, 41 & 42 points for out away games.

After that, it is to regain possession by forcing an error or kick from the opponent. This we are also patently failing to do, you know line speed, man and ball tackles, all that blah blah. Teams can and are just keeping ball, playing phases, pushing us backwards and waiting (not very long) for our error.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: stevene (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 13:46

Quote:
MartWhit
Stevene,
sorry guys, our defensive system is just rubbish.

- caught out on 30 seconds and zero phases with a simple chip behind because we parked big forwards in the cnetres
- Ended up with faf defending the wing slot after 2 phases
- nearly got caught by another simple chip for phase 4
- poor tackle technique gifts penalty after 3 minutes.
- preposterously lucky not to give away a try after 4 minutes when caught narrow.....again

quins didnt do anything to pull it apart, it just unravels all on its own.

Thats my precise analysis of just the first 5 minutes posted earlier in the thread. I could pull apart the rest, but I dont have the will.

Still missing the point. If you gift a decent team away from him 80 percent possession you generally. That's nothing to d with the defensive system. The reason we lost last night was we can't string phases together or retain the ball.

There was a stat on the game after about 20 mins. Our tackle success rate was 97% theirs was 79%. Problem was they had made about 15 tackles and we had made 60+ if I remember right.

All teams which have 20% against a good attacking team look rubbish in defence as we have done against sarries, wasps and Quins after 20-30 mins. Our defence might not brilliant but it's not as bad as you make out. Our lack of ability to play tight and retain possession is more relevant. The bt guys made reference to the fact we haven't scored 'normal' tries like other sides this season in the commentary in the second half. That is both a positive (e.g. We have the ability to break open a game) but also a negative (we don't tend to score through tight play/ pressure/ going through the phases). That puts massive pressure on your defence, more so away from home.

I'm sure you'll disagree as from all your posts your pretty consistent in your views of forshaw. I just think there are other significant contributing issues to our defence away from home, namely our ability to retain possession and alleviate pressure.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: clutch (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 14:19

Plus our defence was excellent last week. It's more of an issue of awayitus and as you say the inability to retain the ball. I do think we will need to question the coaching and at some point look at it as we attempt to become a top 6 team. Forshaw has a lot in the bag. When he joined he made a huge difference to our defence and was arguably the main reason why we suddenly started finishing 6th.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: Olyy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 14:55

I think our plan A defence works well against certain gameplans - last week was a monumental effort.
Issue is we have no plan B and can't adjust, Quins obviously identified our weakness to chips over and exploited it massively, the commentary pointed it out after a matter of minutes yet we did nothing to adjust and they continued to exploit it all game.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: clutch (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 15:08

I think that is fair. We can't keep being awful away. Something has to change. Whether that is coachinh personel. A few key signings or a bit of luck.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: emerging shark (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 16:32

I still can't help feeling that we only target home games and are happy just to keep the score down away from home. I had a gut feeling that we would lose convincingly to Quins..
Mid table and perhaps qualification or Europe is probably out target.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: emerging shark (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 16:37

So Gloucester beat saints who were joint top of the table. Make of that what you will!

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: DaveAitch (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 16:42

Quote:
Bradwall
Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate.
I don't disagree with....but, defensive systems don't operate well unless the side with the ball "play the game" and look for the safety of recycling (and usually done rather too slowly). The ball is retained, but the chance of really breaking through is lost (at least for another umpteen phases). There does seem to have been far more breakouts this season with defences thrown into disarray.

There have been several tries this season where the defensive winger has been lobbed by a pass or a kick. Possibly many players are looking for the glory of the interception and the breakaway try. I recall being told years ago (and I do mean years ago), when playing on th wing, to always be wide so as not to let the opposition player outflank you. Cover could get to the attacker if he was forced back inside but usually could not if you were outflanked.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: clutch (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 17:12

There is no way we only target home games. That can't be true anymore. We do get caught out wide too often but I don't see it as Forshaw's fault that we were 3 tries down. Plenty of other factors involved. O Connor and Faff combo is going to be so random that anything can happen!!!

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: Bradwall Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 18:57

Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
Bradwall
Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate.
I don't disagree with....but, defensive systems don't operate well unless the side with the ball "play the game" and look for the safety of recycling (and usually done rather too slowly). The ball is retained, but the chance of really breaking through is lost (at least for another umpteen phases). There does seem to have been far more breakouts this season with defences thrown into disarray.

There have been several tries this season where the defensive winger has been lobbed by a pass or a kick. Possibly many players are looking for the glory of the interception and the breakaway try. I recall being told years ago (and I do mean years ago), when playing on th wing, to always be wide so as not to let the opposition player outflank you. Cover could get to the attacker if he was forced back inside but usually could not if you were outflanked.

Absolutely right. Basic stuff.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: HaleShark (IP Logged)
Date: 07 October, 2017 19:45

Quote:
emerging shark
I still can't help feeling that we only target home games and are happy just to keep the score down away from home. I had a gut feeling that we would lose convincingly to Quins..
Mid table and perhaps qualification or Europe is probably out target.


Yep, I've thought that too for a long time and the comment Dimes made about the squad taking the lead on the away games underlines this theory. However probably not a bad tactic when we had a less skilled squad, Premiership survival is everything to us. We need to change that mind-set now.

Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Posted by: PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
Date: 08 October, 2017 06:27

Certain that we don't forfeit all away games, I think we tried to win at Quins, just made a complete FUBAR of it. Dimes has said in the past that our small squad means that we can't try to win all of our away games. He calls it targetting. I agree that he needs to be somewhat pragmatic about managing a small squad, but surely everyone can see that his approach has nurtured the very psychological problem that he says we now need help with. We do appear to have begun to utilise proper rotation this season, that hasn't yet adjusted the mindset for away games, it should in time.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

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