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England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: franknfurter (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2018 22:13

World Rugby say Wales should have been awarded a try

[www.bbc.com]

What is the point of this really?

The Referee asked for TMO intervention.
TMO gave the verdict as he saw it.
Referee accepted TMO decision

End of story.


Two points I would like to make.
The TMO could not make a wrong decision. The decision he made was what he considered to be true and accurate given the footage seen and the question asked.

The referee, although asking for the TMO to intervene, did not have to accept the decision and could have ruled himself.

For me, an ardent England supporter, it was a try.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2018 22:15 by franknfurter.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: Mrs Trellis of North Wales (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2018 23:22

Knock on by the winger. No Try.



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Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: ale shark (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 08:29

What's the point indeed? Who cares? Any Welshman with a bit of dignity would recognise it was a knock on into the end zone.

Perhaps Gatland and Howley can agree to scratch off their bonus point try against Scotland that came off a blatant and very obvious forward pass. No, thought not.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: Flumpty (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 09:10

The ref said No Try.

The End.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:02

Not according to the Ref's bosses. Allegedly.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: emerging shark (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:07

Who would be a ref at that level!!

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: jaytom (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:23

I would say it was No Try and that World Rugby should be supporting their matchday officials to make the decisions as they see them.

For me, the call was correct - Anscombe's hand was rolling off the ball as it was coming to the floor and from that angle it was not clear if he was still touching the side of the ball at the moment it grounded. When the question is 'Try, Yes or No?', it has to be clear cut. If it was 'Any reason not to award a try?' then the benefit of the doubt is given to the attacking team. As there are calls that the winger knocked on in the build up, his biggest mistake was not reviewing that contact in more detail IMO.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: jamestaylorreturns (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:33

incidentally to fill time in on a wet day with no signings to discuss, anyone see a link with footage of the winger knocking on (Guscott says on Beeb you see his fingers bending back?)

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: ale shark (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:48


Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:49

yes I saw it on Facebook and Twitter as well, you can clearly see his fingers bend as they make contact with the ball. will try to find a link



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Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 12:51

he knocked it on



Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: emerging shark (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 16:48

That's as clear as mud.. the view of his fingers are obstructed by the ball..

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 16:50

unless he can flex his ring finger backwards independently of the others(I don't know about you but I cant) then the ball hits his fingers



Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: Mrs Trellis of North Wales (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 16:59

The TMO said "No Try" as he did to Frank's effort in RWC2007.



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Dis mus be da place

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: yukon (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 19:35

Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
The TMO said "No Try" as he did to Frank's effort in RWC2007.

To be fair, Iím still not over that decision!

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: DaveAitch (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 20:24

This TMO got the decision, no try, correct even if it was for the wrong reason.

World rugby, whoever they are, are unfortunately, silly to make any comment other than the say the decision has been made. As I think has been said the TMO (and the referee) can only give what he sees on the replays that he has then available, in some sort of sensible time span. (As Kingston said about that Robshaw incident a few weeks back "you could look at the video for ever and still not be a hundred percent sure".)

Re-reviewing the various videos the knock-on is arguably more definite than the grounding.

As has also been said, I can't recall any Welsh official or even anyone from World Rugby saying the the pass in the previous game was forwards even though it was much more definite than what happened in this last game.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: clutch (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2018 21:30

Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.

Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: Yareet (IP Logged)
Date: 15 February, 2018 07:00

Quote:
clutch
Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.
Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.

Two (or four) point swing. They got 3 instead of 5 (or 7).

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
Date: 15 February, 2018 07:43

There was about as much chance on that day of Patchel kicking the conversion as of seeing a squadron of Gloucester Old Spot doing laps of the stadium.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Posted by: DaveAitch (IP Logged)
Date: 15 February, 2018 08:31

Quote:
clutch
Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.
Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.
...but what seems to be taken to make the ball going forwards is the direction on the hands as the ball is passed. Elsewhere it was argued that as it hit his knee it wasn't a knock-on, but there has to be a measure of control for it to be a kick (whether foot or knee). If there does not have to be any control then all the incorrectly fielded high kicks that run through the arms but touch somewhere on the lower leg are not then a knock-on. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complains about those.

As regards the touchdown itself, in the end it comes down to opinion. The laws generally don't help in that some common sense wording is missing. While it doesn't state that proper downward pressure has to be exerted on the ball, if the player is not in full control of it, the wording is intended to mean that. Just touching the ball at the time it roughest the ground does not make it a try. By the laws of physics no downward pressure can be exerted if the hand is below mid way. If full downward pressure is used the ball jumps up (unless the ground is extremely muddy).

I don't think the naked eye of most unbiased people would have awarded it as a try.

This has all become trial by television of the TMO. There was a time that referees' decisions were accepted, now we have World Rugby questioning them, and the TMO is part of the refereeing system. I find it strange that Diamond can have a slap on the wrist for questioning decisions when World Rugby think it's alright for them to do it. Either rugby officials can comment in public without redress of they should keep stum.

We will now wonder why every decision made by the TMO which is not cast-iron correct does not elicit a response from world rugby. Is it just certain events that will be singled out. The miss of the forward pass in the Wales-Scotland game was a far more definite error by the TMO but World Rugby said nothing. Why? Was it just because Gatland didn't complain about the decision, odd would it have needed the Scots to complain.

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