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England Team - good grief!
Posted by: AlanE (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 13:43

Daly

May
Slade
Farrell
Brown

Ford
Youngs

M Vunipola
George
Sinckler

Itoje
Isiekwe

Robshaw
T Curry
B Vunipola

Bench: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Williams, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Francis, Solomona

Well done to Nick and Ben. Hard luck on Loz.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 13:47 by AlanE.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: The Substandard Biscuit (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 14:46

"Hard luck on Loz." You're not joking:
1. Totally outplayed Slade 2 weeks ago in a head-to-head match
2. Would have been playing next to a club colleague, so better levels of understanding - particularly in defence
3. Not even on the bench. Remarkable.
(Difficult to say this, but) Feel sorry for Ellis Genge too.

But then ...
11. Mike Brown - oh dear, oh dear (it was mentioned on an early thread that Eddie has 'lost the plot' - this confirms it). He was dreadful against the BaaBaa's. He's not a winger, and looks like he needs a long holiday (some might say retirement).

Otherwise, very Well done to Nick & Spenno = totally deserved.

Already some comments about 7 Sarries in the 23 (=Champions), but there are 4 Quins (= a miserable 10th)!!!

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: vunipolae (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 15:45

Mike Brown on the wing again is bad, but I cannot fathom for the life of me why Francis is on the bench. Lozowski for me deserves to start but how is he not ahead of Francis

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: OhMaroItoje (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:00

Loz is miles ahead of Slade yet alone Francis. Brown on bathe wing blows my mind especially with England having so many choices in that area! As much as I think Spencer is an outstanding player you can’t help but feel sorry for Robson who’s been the best 9 in the Prem for me this year

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: nicsue (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:09

Sigh

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: AB (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:14

unbelievable to play Brown? Even the Harlequins supporters can't believe it!

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:18

Haven't got problem with the forwards.

The backs....?
Yep, needs an attack coach because Brown is never a winger.
Anyone could see that against the Baas,.... Unless he is lining up to swap them about at kick off.

Maybe Jones wants to start Daly there and get him caps and has to pick Brown as having him on the bench serves no purpose at all.

Not sure about Francis but he covers lots of positions.
...albeit without much distinction.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 18:08

Quote:
vunipolae
Mike Brown on the wing again is bad, but I cannot fathom for the life of me why Francis is on the bench. Lozowski for me deserves to start but how is he not ahead of Francis

Given that Loz can cover 10,12,13 and 15 how on earth is he not on the bench at least. I've seen nothing from Francis to even remotely suggest he is international quality. And as for Mike Brown on the wing - as I saw on the Saints board at least he doesn't even need to consider passing when on the wing! In my opinion Brown either has to start at 15 (I don't believe he should BTW) or he shouldn't be in the squad.

Also there is no second row cover on the bench - apparently Brad Shields can do that although apparently he has not started a match in the 2nd row for at least the past 3 seasons! Clueless selection policy

I'm beginning to think more and more that Eddie is determined to mess England up for the WC in retaliation for the 2003 beating back in Aus. I can't think of another reason for his perverse selection policies! Gussie has made the correct call to get out while he can before he gets tarnished by what Eddie is doing with this squad.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: GerryK (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 18:15

Don't understand why EJ persists with having Ford and Brown in the squad both passed their sell by date, Owen at 12 rather than 10 his best position, Slade v Alex is debatable even though Alex skinned him in the final.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Sara'sman (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 18:39

Sorry, but too many too partisan comments for me. Loz's defence at 13 remains naive/vulnerable imo and I'm not convinced he's yet shown enough for long enough to justify international selection there. Though I agree Slade doesn't look international class - he rarely shines in big games, and Francis has done little to make me optimistic that he'll provide any positive answers.

I'd rather all of our players were resting on a beach, but congratulations to them all - Isiekwe and Spencer especially. I worry about the physical demands on them all after the Lions/Argentina and a long season and like many would prefer Faz at 10. Shields as bench lock cover is strange, Curry deserves his chance at 7 (though I fear for him physically too) and Brown at 11 is just baffling.

Two years on Jones has the same problems that plagued Lancaster - no suitable player claiming the 7 shirt and no consistently fit partnership in the centres. Tight Head too!

Finally a question! If Michael Rhodes should push ahead of Shields next season does he become too expensive for us as we'll need him even more badly during AIs and 6N with GK, MI and NI all likely to be away (I know he was injured this year - NI covered)?

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: AB (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 19:18

Quote:
Sara'sman
Sorry, but too many too partisan comments for me. Loz's defence at 13 remains naive/vulnerable imo and I'm not convinced he's yet shown enough for long enough to justify international selection there. Though I agree Slade doesn't look international class - he rarely shines in big games, and Francis has done little to make me optimistic that he'll provide any positive answers.
I'd rather all of our players were resting on a beach, but congratulations to them all - Isiekwe and Spencer especially. I worry about the physical demands on them all after the Lions/Argentina and a long season and like many would prefer Faz at 10. Shields as bench lock cover is strange, Curry deserves his chance at 7 (though I fear for him physically too) and Brown at 11 is just baffling.

Two years on Jones has the same problems that plagued Lancaster - no suitable player claiming the 7 shirt and no consistently fit partnership in the centres. Tight Head too!

Finally a question! If Michael Rhodes should push ahead of Shields next season does he become too expensive for us as we'll need him even more badly during AIs and 6N with GK, MI and NI all likely to be away (I know he was injured this year - NI covered)?

rather harsh remark about Loz and his defence! don't agree at all



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 19:19 by AB.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 20:59

Sara'sman has a point, Loz has not played many games at 13 so I don't really mind slade starting there ahead of him for this first game.

What I don't get is how he is not even on the bench, he covers more positions than Francis and has played much better this season than Francis so that one I don't get. I also don't get the Brown on the wing thing, it has never worked, he is not a winger

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: primavesi (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 08:33

Quote:
Sara'sman
Sorry, but too many too partisan comments for me. Loz's defence at 13 remains naive/vulnerable imo and I'm not convinced he's yet shown enough for long enough to justify international selection there. Though I agree Slade doesn't look international class - he rarely shines in big games, and Francis has done little to make me optimistic that he'll provide any positive answers.
I'd rather all of our players were resting on a beach, but congratulations to them all - Isiekwe and Spencer especially. I worry about the physical demands on them all after the Lions/Argentina and a long season and like many would prefer Faz at 10. Shields as bench lock cover is strange, Curry deserves his chance at 7 (though I fear for him physically too) and Brown at 11 is just baffling.

Two years on Jones has the same problems that plagued Lancaster - no suitable player claiming the 7 shirt and no consistently fit partnership in the centres. Tight Head too!

Finally a question! If Michael Rhodes should push ahead of Shields next season does he become too expensive for us as we'll need him even more badly during AIs and 6N with GK, MI and NI all likely to be away (I know he was injured this year - NI covered)?

Can´t disagree with any of this.

Personally I dont think any of the test Lions should have been allowed anywhere near South Africa this summer. RFU paying lip service to player welfare as usual but then failing to put their money where their mouth is.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: #wolfpack (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 09:05

1. I think Slade over Loz is a nonsense . Loz completely outplayed him in the final. For him to be behind Piers Francis is baffling in the extreme.

2. Ford and Farrell has to be the 10-12 partnership because Eddie tied his hands by selecting Ben Teo as the only possible 12. Then Teo got injured (quell surprise). So I don't think there was any other option there.

3. I agree with the comments above about Robson. I like Spenno, but Robson has been the best 9 in the league for a few years now. Eddie clearly doesn't fancy him for some reason (Alex Goode, Chris Ashton, Don Armand esque)

4. This is my attempt at explaining the reasoning behind Brown: Eddie Jones has always liked one winger to be quick, one winger to work hard and carry off 9 and 10. He's said as much in terms. Jack Nowell or Anthony Watson are his preferred options but neither are available. He also long term probably wants to play Daly at 15 (I agree with this). As such in order to keep his system the same he has to compromise and play Brown on the wing, because Brown is more suited to doing the hard work and popping up all over the place than Solomona (not sure why he is there at all) or Nathan Earle (also not convinced Nate deserves his place on the tour) - both of whom are replacements for the quick winger. I think it therefore a system thing rather than an obsession with Brown himself.

5. I agree with the comments above about the Lions boys being on tour in the first place. It is clear for all to see that they shouldn't be.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: bargepole (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 11:46

Anyone who was at AZP on 19 May will have observed that the power of the Sarries pack, combined with the ability to score from anywhere of the Wasps backline, would make one hell of a team.

This is the squad that EJ should select, but won't (assuming all are fit, and excluding non-English qualified players):

15 Goode
14 Wade
13 Lozowski
12 Farrell
11 Daly
10 Cipriani
9 Robson
1 M.Vunipola
2 George
3 Cooper-Wooley
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hughes
7 Wray
8 B.Vunipola

16 Cruse
17 Mullan
18 Barrington
19 Isiekwe
20 Thompson
21 Spencer
22 Barritt
23 Bassett

It would take a very good side indeed to beat that lot.



Wasps supporter and ex-player since 1964



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2018 11:46 by bargepole.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: JO'G (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 11:49

I notice that EJ will be doing the 'normal' with Cipriani

select him for the tour
not pick him for any game
demonstrate that due to his non-impact on the SA tour he need not pick him again

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 13:17

Quote:
#wolfpack
1. I think Slade over Loz is a nonsense . Loz completely outplayed him in the final.

That's not how the game works though. You can look at front rows and say 'X's front-row outfought Y's front-row in the scrum', or 'X's line-out outplayed Y's line-out', but there are too many moving parts to compare one player against another. Besides which, you don't base those decisions on a single game.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 13:21

Quote:
bargepole
Anyone who was at AZP on 19 May will have observed that the power of the Sarries pack, combined with the ability to score from anywhere of the Wasps backline, would make one hell of a team.
This is the squad that EJ should select, but won't (assuming all are fit, and excluding non-English qualified players):

15 Goode
14 Wade
13 Lozowski
12 Farrell
11 Daly
10 Cipriani
9 Robson
1 M.Vunipola
2 George
3 Cooper-Wooley
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hughes
7 Wray
8 B.Vunipola

16 Cruse
17 Mullan
18 Barrington
19 Isiekwe
20 Thompson
21 Spencer
22 Barritt
23 Bassett

It would take a very good side indeed to beat that lot.

Indeed. Not rocket science. Start with that and see how far it goes.
I'm of the opinion that Jones is limited and a one trick pony. When he has played out that trick after a few years, he goes backwards. Rather like Lancaster who might have had another trick or two, or been more open to them, if he'd had a bit more experience at the time.

But at least you didn't get all the trash with SL...

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: PhillFez (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 16:48

The part that is easy to agree with is that Brown is not a first choice fullback (Sm7)

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: F-F-F-FEZ (IP Logged)
Date: 08 June, 2018 22:48

Am looking forward to this series as two imperfect teams sometimes produce entertaining rugby.

Don't think we'll take the series and if we lose Test 1 it will be a grind to avoid a 3 - 0

Love to be proved wrong as ever.

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