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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: #wolfpack (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 09:30

Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
John Tee
Launchbury coming home would mean Isiekwe gets back on the horse pretty quickly which is good news.
Jones can then pick Shields in the back row for added experience for the team.
That may mean Robshaw makes way..?

Nothing would surprise me in selection now. Shields for 3 tests at lock?

Reports are that Shields will be starting at lock in the second test. He hasn't played there at club level for 4 years.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: mike909 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 11:49

I thought you were having a laugh but....

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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: AB (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 12:21

Unreal if he plays Shields in second row and that will mean retaining Robshaw

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: mike909 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 12:33

Quote:
AB
Unreal if he plays Shields in second row and that will mean retaining Robshaw

Seems undroppable - must an Eddie favourite, who can do no wrong.......

AND, what message does that send to Jonny and Nick as real locks?

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 15:17

No doubt I'd play Isiekwe if he wasn't blown away by the substitution. If not play Hill. I'd put them in and tell them we need them to step up etc..
If they survive this, we have a player....if not, we lose them the damage is done.
This is why the tour result was a rubbish target anyway...
Imo.
Can't see this is being handled very well from a man management poverty..?

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: 1876-Fez (IP Logged)
Date: 13 June, 2018 19:31

Launchbury probably to start as 2nd row, should imagine Shields will start in back row. .. let's hope a proper 2nd row replacement on the bench.

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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: TonyTaff (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 11:36

Quote:
1876-Fez
Launchbury probably to start as 2nd row, should imagine Shields will start in back row. .. let's hope a proper 2nd row replacement on the bench.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

You got the starting line-up, but there's still no second row cover.

Yoga even waffled on about SA having a strong line-out, then did nothing about it - unless anyone thinks that Shields for Robshaw is a line-out solution!



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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: The Bard (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 12:25

Bizarre yet again. An less than fully fit Launchbury playing at altitude? How long will that last? Surely Nick would have provided number 6 cover too. Why not 6-2 split on the bench ?

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: 1876-Fez (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 12:51

He's a stubborn @#$%& tyat Jones.
Can't believe no 2nd row cover...

Feel for Nick.



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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Raggs (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 12:54

Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

Isiekwe was awful in clearing rucks (both in quantity and quality), probably at least part of why he was removed. Shields much improved that aspect, and he went up in more lineouts than any other English forward.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 14:09

Quote:
Raggs
Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

He should be building a squad for RWC. Look at SA, with EE and LdJ out and PSdT in the back row, they have their 6th choice lock involved this weekend. England are playing their established first choice lock pairing and don't even have cover for them despite one being flogged since Loins tour and the other only recovered from injury. If even there was an opportunity to test new guys against a tier one side, this is it.

And don't talk about Shields covering lock, he was brought in to fix problems in the back row, he shouldn't be double jobbing in the engine room. Having Shields train as a primary line out jumper isn't going to help the back row unit. If the back row is going well with Shields, you risk upsetting that if he needs to shift to lock.

Persisting with Brown and Ford despite form doesn't scream peaking in 15 months to me.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Raggs (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 14:11

Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Raggs
Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

He should be building a squad for RWC. Look at SA, with EE and LdJ out and PSdT in the back row, they have their 6th choice lock involved this weekend. England are playing their established first choice lock pairing and don't even have cover for them despite one being flogged since Loins tour and the other only recovered from injury. If even there was an opportunity to test new guys against a tier one side, this is it.

And don't talk about Shields covering lock, he was brought in to fix problems in the back row, he shouldn't be double jobbing in the engine room. Having Shields train as a primary line out jumper isn't going to help the back row unit. If the back row is going well with Shields, you risk upsetting that if he needs to shift to lock.

Persisting with Brown and Ford despite form doesn't scream peaking in 15 months to me.

Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?

Ford had a good game against SA.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 14:39

Quote:
Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?
What about them? Kruis and Lawes are well established. The likes of Ewels (is he injured?), Isiekwe and Hill should be given a chance to show what they can do on this tour.

Quote:
Ford had a good game against SA.

Ford is good behind a strong pack and with front foot ball but limited without this, did anyone really need this confirmed again (and again)? It's the reluctance to try something different, despite continued defeats, which makes no sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/06/2018 14:40 by RuggyBuggy.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Waldo (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 15:00

Sad as it may sound - I'm past caring now.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 15:34

Nick should be on bench at least
Daly 14 Brown 15 & Loz 13



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Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Raggs (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 15:39

Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?
What about them? Kruis and Lawes are well established. The likes of Ewels (is he injured?), Isiekwe and Hill should be given a chance to show what they can do on this tour.

Quote:
Ford had a good game against SA.

Ford is good behind a strong pack and with front foot ball but limited without this, did anyone really need this confirmed again (and again)? It's the reluctance to try something different, despite continued defeats, which makes no sense.

Ewels is injured, however, the point was that's 5 locks ahead of Isiekwe and 6 locks ahead of Hill. He's supposed to be building a squad for the RWC, and most tier 1 RWC squads have 3-4 locks, Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes. The chance of Hill pushing ahead of any of them? He's in the camp to give him the once over, and if he shines, maybe he'll get later chances. We see the matches, Eddie see's the training, he's getting his chance, even if we don't see it.

Can you please point out the England qualified 10 that doesn't look limited when lacking front foot ball? A number of our tries actually came off the back of pretty poor carries and slow ruck ball, but due to good decision making and execution from Ford, Farrell's being a great example. Ridiculously long ruck, but Ford spots an opportunity, sends out a near perfect miss 2 pass to May in space.

I'm also not sure how much Ford can do when England are giving away back to back stupid penalties. Someone should be bashing skulls in the pack, when 4 lions give up 10 penalties between them, but it's not Ford.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 17:37

If Eddie loses the next two and a couple more in the Autumn he won't be at the world cup, that might hinder his preparations somewhat.
Raggs, you defend Eddie as you did with Lancaster, and the promise of jam tomorrow did not materialise with Lancaster, and all the criticism of selection in the centre in particular turned out to be true. It won't materialise for Eddie if he does not start winning soon. England have massive resources and have made 6 u20 finals in a row and yet we have a coach who thinks Mike 'excellent for 23 games, mate' Brown is a winger and seems unable to pick a balanced back row or a team with the correct number of locks.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 18:11

Quote:
Raggs
Ewels is injured, however, the point was that's 5 locks ahead of Isiekwe and 6 locks ahead of Hill. He's supposed to be building a squad for the RWC, and most tier 1 RWC squads have 3-4 locks, Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes. The chance of Hill pushing ahead of any of them? He's in the camp to give him the once over, and if he shines, maybe he'll get later chances. We see the matches, Eddie see's the training, he's getting his chance, even if we don't see it.

Isiekwe and Hill are two of only four locks in the squad, I don't see any sense in ignoring them. Particularly given it is an attritional position, in a game at altitude, against a team who are traditionally strong in that position. Taking a punt on a guy is at least no worse (and possibly more favourable) than the alternative in this case. Last weekend, two locks were injured which is not an unusual situation so building depth is not a bad thing.
Quote:
Can you please point out the England qualified 10 that doesn't look limited when lacking front foot ball? A number of our tries actually came off the back of pretty poor carries and slow ruck ball, but due to good decision making and execution from Ford, Farrell's being a great example. Ridiculously long ruck, but Ford spots an opportunity, sends out a near perfect miss 2 pass to May in space.

Farrell, Cips and Loz can all play 10. I'm not questioning Ford's ability but he is off form (and throwing a couple of nice passes doesn't change that). Again, why not look at the options? An often used definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same thing but expecting different results, I think this is very applicable to Eddie's recent selections.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: Raggs (IP Logged)
Date: 14 June, 2018 20:06

Last weekend 4 locks were unavailable by my count, only one of them in the squad admittedly, but the other two weren't because of other injury. I think Shields did better than Isiekwe, and clearly Eddie rates Isiekwe higher than Hill. Eddie took a punt on playing Shields at lock, and it didn't backfire.

Faz and Cips can play 10, Loz I'm not convinced he's good enough at AP level, let alone international. However when has Faz shown any ability to play on the back foot? Cips is a bit different, since he get's Wasps on the front foot in a slightly different way to how England play, but Cips would need to be at 10 for seasons, to get everyone on the right level, and would be no better (potentially slightly worse) in defence. Cips should have been picked seasons ago, now I don't see much reason to dump the younger and more internationally experienced Ford for him. None of them is going to be able to do much when their pack is giving away a load of penalties, most of them needlessly.

Ford is not the problem, and to swap him out would be to completely ignore where that game was won and lost.

WestWalesWasp, I defended Lancaster for a fair while, but not completely. I disagreed with his selection of Faz at 10, as he was far too limited at the time (to his and saracens credit, I'd now not be against his selection there, but still feel Ford is the better playmaker). I disagreed with his selection of Barritt at 12, since I felt he limited our attack too much (and again, since I'm on a Saracens forum, I should probably point out that now I'd probably be look at Brad at 12 for England, since his game has also come along), and disagreed with his shoddy treatment of Eastmond. I also felt that he completely ruined our pack with his pre-rwc camp, and ignored the one forward that still seemed to have some genuine power and form, Haskell, until it was too late. Where I defended Lancaster, was when people were blaming him for everything, no matter what, and ignoring the fact that up until the world cup (which he screwed up royally), he was one of our most successful coaches. I'd also point out that people love to think that someone else is "defending" a coach, when they try and suggest the reasons behind the coaches thinking, agreeing with it or not. I tend to take the approach (as the discussion on the Wasps board shows) that a team of professional rugby coaches, in close contact with these players day in, day out, probably have some reasoning behind their selections, even if us amateurs disagree, they aren't simply idiots.

Re: England Team - good grief!
Posted by: primavesi (IP Logged)
Date: 15 June, 2018 08:49

Agree with Raggs, we have seen enough of the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo to stick with it to the world cup.

This "cant play behind a struggling pack" cliche is a red herring anyway. All 10s look better if their pack is on top but Ford copes just as well as the rest when presented with slower ball.

On the one hand, people say he needs to pick on form, in other words dropping players who are not in form (as long as they are not Sarries players). They say he has his core group that he stays loyal to (who doesnt). On the other, people then complain that he has not picked a settled team and given combinations the time to gel. He canīt win.

As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

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