Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Coughie (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 02:02
Emboldened hack crossed the line?
~ You never knowingly let the facts get in the way of the story. ~
~ You never knowingly let the facts get in the way of the story. ~
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Roderick Flashheart (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 08:20
Yes,John has really gone for it there.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: WiseWasps! (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 08:45
Potentially caught cheating twice in a few years. This could really get messy and cause major damage to your club. It seems to be gaining momentum. Really takes the shine off your trophy cabinet.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: AP (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 09:31
In the same edition, Owen Slot has a rather more measured analysis - if you do the sums, there's no evidence that the salary packages at Saracens break the cap, the investment partnerships are odd and need to be cleared, and anyway all salaries and remuneration should be public.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 09:46
Quote:
Your link is behind Murdoch's paywall. If someone who subscribes can do a copy and paste job........?
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 09:57
What makes me so angry about these hacks is that they never apologise if and when they are proved wrong. You sort of expect more from the Times...
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: sarricen (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 09:59
It staggers me how so-called professional journalists can say something like 'We do know for certain that Saracens were found in breach of the salary cap in 2015'
Even the most anti-sarries noise at the time was that it was a grey area and open to interpretation, and PRL confirmed we did not break the cap, and was settled out of court with the loophole closed in order to avoid a court case that PRL in all likelihood would lose. But of course with the passage of time and the current social media led witch-hunt going on it is very easy to say this and pass it off as fact.
Even the most anti-sarries noise at the time was that it was a grey area and open to interpretation, and PRL confirmed we did not break the cap, and was settled out of court with the loophole closed in order to avoid a court case that PRL in all likelihood would lose. But of course with the passage of time and the current social media led witch-hunt going on it is very easy to say this and pass it off as fact.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 10:03
Quote:WiseWasps!
Potentially caught cheating twice in a few years. This could really get messy and cause major damage to your club. It seems to be gaining momentum. Really takes the shine off your trophy cabinet.
I wouldn’t be lauding about finances as a Wasps fan.... nothing proven yet
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Coughie (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 10:13
Here's the article and here's hoping I won't be fined under the Copyright cap... My recollection was that Saracens were not found to be in breach of the salary cap because agreement was reached by all. I remember John Westerby, Brian Moore and other journalists did not like this. The Wasps club were the most reluctant to reach agreement, and Harlequins also moaned about it...
John Westerby writing in The Times,6 march 2019:
We do not yet know whether the investigation into the hidden extras behind Saracens’ wage bills will reveal that they have once again breached the salary cap. The details unearthed by the Daily Mail earlier this week — that Nigel Wray, the Saracens owner, has business partnerships with leading players such as Owen Farrell, Billy and Mako Vunipola — have been declared to Premiership Rugby’s salary cap scrutineers, the club insist.
But if they were to be found guilty, is it really any surprise? We do know for certain that Saracens were found in breach of the salary cap in 2015, as were Bath. And the response of their fellow Premiership clubs — a majority of them, at least — was to attempt to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. So is there really a deterrent to any club wanting to find ways of gaining a march on their rivals by simply spending more?
Since that 2015 breach, eventually settled out of court, Saracens have been Premiership champions for three of the past four years, champions of Europe two of the past three. At other clubs across the Premiership, there is universal admiration for the high standards and the culture Saracens have developed over the past decade, particularly the way they have brought through home-grown players. There is also almost universal suspicion about the way they fit their wages under the salary cap.
This is not jealousy, and there are other clubs who attract rumour and suspicion, too, but because Saracens have been caught before — and allowed to get away with it — they tend to be questioned the most. In 2015, a majority of Premiership clubs were persuaded to vote secretly to abandon the investigation into breaches by Saracens and Bath. The intention had been to let the matter slip quietly away until The Times revealed that the investigation had been shelved.
Conor O’Shea will be back in England this week as head coach of Italy, a role he took up after leaving Harlequins in 2016. As Danny Care, the England and Harlequins scrum half, said on the BBC Rugby Union Weekly podcast this week, O’Shea had found it increasingly hard to compete with clubs who were overspending without punishment.
“There have always been rumours and questions about how [Saracens] afford that high level of player,” Care said. “We have had some frustrations in the past and a major reason why Conor O’Shea left was he felt it wasn’t a level playing field and nothing was being done. When it happened a few years ago, it got swept under the carpet a little bit.”
Speak to coaches across the Premiership and you will hear similar frustrations. I spoke to the head coach of one big Premiership club this week and he lamented the fact that, when he is asked in public about Saracens’ dominance in recent years, he cannot say what he thinks, he merely has to bite his tongue, then talk about the quality of their coaching and the environment they have created. His admiration is sincere, but, he feels, only part of the story.
The problem is that the Premiership operates on a self-regulatory basis. The competition organisers, Premiership Rugby, whose website includes a comprehensive section on the salary cap, are only as strong as the will of their 13 constituent clubs will allow. The findings of the salary cap manager, Andrew Rogers, are subject to votes from the 13 Premiership chairmen and therefore prey to the politicking that inevitably surrounds governance of the competition.
The desire of coaches and players for transparency has not, in short, been shared by the club owners. Ryan Walkinshaw, the former Gloucester chairman, has outlined how many clubs feel in a revealing Twitter thread. “There is literally zero doubt in my mind that some clubs break the salary cap,” he wrote. “I have heard a number of club owners admit it to my face.” Walkinshaw was one of the chairmen who pushed for greater sanctions for Saracens and Bath in 2015, but found himself in the minority. “I fought hard to try and ensure that the alleged clubs in breach would be brought to justice,” he wrote. “Sadly I was one of only a small handful of clubs who shared that same mindset.”
Financial penalties remain in place for clubs found to have overspent, but whether those sanctions are effective deterrents remains highly doubtful. The official line from Premiership Rugby is that they have “a duty to all clubs to deliver the system in a transparent, objective and non-discriminatory manner”. Yet the last time they opened an investigation, having promised similar transparency in the past, they attempted to cover the whole thing up, supposedly to protect the image of the competition.
If the clubs are in any way serious about policing the salary cap in an effective manner, in ensuring their coaches get to compete on a level playing field, the next time a team is found guilty of overspending, their fellow Premiership clubs must come down hard with a punishment that deters further transgressions in the future.
~ You never knowingly let the facts get in the way of the story. ~
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 10:31 by Coughie.
John Westerby writing in The Times,6 march 2019:
We do not yet know whether the investigation into the hidden extras behind Saracens’ wage bills will reveal that they have once again breached the salary cap. The details unearthed by the Daily Mail earlier this week — that Nigel Wray, the Saracens owner, has business partnerships with leading players such as Owen Farrell, Billy and Mako Vunipola — have been declared to Premiership Rugby’s salary cap scrutineers, the club insist.
But if they were to be found guilty, is it really any surprise? We do know for certain that Saracens were found in breach of the salary cap in 2015, as were Bath. And the response of their fellow Premiership clubs — a majority of them, at least — was to attempt to sweep the whole thing under the carpet. So is there really a deterrent to any club wanting to find ways of gaining a march on their rivals by simply spending more?
Since that 2015 breach, eventually settled out of court, Saracens have been Premiership champions for three of the past four years, champions of Europe two of the past three. At other clubs across the Premiership, there is universal admiration for the high standards and the culture Saracens have developed over the past decade, particularly the way they have brought through home-grown players. There is also almost universal suspicion about the way they fit their wages under the salary cap.
This is not jealousy, and there are other clubs who attract rumour and suspicion, too, but because Saracens have been caught before — and allowed to get away with it — they tend to be questioned the most. In 2015, a majority of Premiership clubs were persuaded to vote secretly to abandon the investigation into breaches by Saracens and Bath. The intention had been to let the matter slip quietly away until The Times revealed that the investigation had been shelved.
Conor O’Shea will be back in England this week as head coach of Italy, a role he took up after leaving Harlequins in 2016. As Danny Care, the England and Harlequins scrum half, said on the BBC Rugby Union Weekly podcast this week, O’Shea had found it increasingly hard to compete with clubs who were overspending without punishment.
“There have always been rumours and questions about how [Saracens] afford that high level of player,” Care said. “We have had some frustrations in the past and a major reason why Conor O’Shea left was he felt it wasn’t a level playing field and nothing was being done. When it happened a few years ago, it got swept under the carpet a little bit.”
Speak to coaches across the Premiership and you will hear similar frustrations. I spoke to the head coach of one big Premiership club this week and he lamented the fact that, when he is asked in public about Saracens’ dominance in recent years, he cannot say what he thinks, he merely has to bite his tongue, then talk about the quality of their coaching and the environment they have created. His admiration is sincere, but, he feels, only part of the story.
The problem is that the Premiership operates on a self-regulatory basis. The competition organisers, Premiership Rugby, whose website includes a comprehensive section on the salary cap, are only as strong as the will of their 13 constituent clubs will allow. The findings of the salary cap manager, Andrew Rogers, are subject to votes from the 13 Premiership chairmen and therefore prey to the politicking that inevitably surrounds governance of the competition.
The desire of coaches and players for transparency has not, in short, been shared by the club owners. Ryan Walkinshaw, the former Gloucester chairman, has outlined how many clubs feel in a revealing Twitter thread. “There is literally zero doubt in my mind that some clubs break the salary cap,” he wrote. “I have heard a number of club owners admit it to my face.” Walkinshaw was one of the chairmen who pushed for greater sanctions for Saracens and Bath in 2015, but found himself in the minority. “I fought hard to try and ensure that the alleged clubs in breach would be brought to justice,” he wrote. “Sadly I was one of only a small handful of clubs who shared that same mindset.”
Financial penalties remain in place for clubs found to have overspent, but whether those sanctions are effective deterrents remains highly doubtful. The official line from Premiership Rugby is that they have “a duty to all clubs to deliver the system in a transparent, objective and non-discriminatory manner”. Yet the last time they opened an investigation, having promised similar transparency in the past, they attempted to cover the whole thing up, supposedly to protect the image of the competition.
If the clubs are in any way serious about policing the salary cap in an effective manner, in ensuring their coaches get to compete on a level playing field, the next time a team is found guilty of overspending, their fellow Premiership clubs must come down hard with a punishment that deters further transgressions in the future.
~ You never knowingly let the facts get in the way of the story. ~
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 10:31 by Coughie.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 10:56
Thank you.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: GazzaFez (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 11:50
Quote:sarricen
It staggers me how so-called professional journalists can say something like 'We do know for certain that Saracens were found in breach of the salary cap in 2015'
Even the most anti-sarries noise at the time was that it was a grey area and open to interpretation, and PRL confirmed we did not break the cap, and was settled out of court with the loophole closed in order to avoid a court case that PRL in all likelihood would lose. But of course with the passage of time and the current social media led witch-hunt going on it is very easy to say this and pass it off as fact.
Very succinctly put.
It's clear that in 2015 there was disagreement over grey areas which we were adamant were within the rules and PRL said were not. The bottom line is that we were prepared to test that in court and PRL were not confident to do so, which to me clearly means that they were not sure enough of their ground to proceed and by default is an admission that the grey area(s) were either within the rules or were so sloppily defined as to leave it wide open. I'm more than happy to go with the latter explanation. Either way they knew they would lose. The rules were subsequently tightened up (i.e. re-written) with a climb-down by PRL.
If it is proved that we have breached this time, I fully expect huge sanctions against the club. If it is not proved (remember innocent until proved guilty) I expect heads to roll without any delay, starting with but not limited to the salary cap manager. It is simply not acceptable that there should be any questions like this arising at all in the first palace. If any of this were true, then the salary cap manager should not be relying on a tip from a newspaper hack. At the very least he's taken his eye off the ball and at worst he's totally incompetent.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 12:01
The problem with the salary cap is not a law, its an agreement between members of PRL. They can choose to change it, enforce it or do whatever they like.
The problem with regulations is its very difficult to give an exhaustive list of what is and is not allowed.
Most people believe Saracens pushed the boundaries to gain an unfair advantage (many of us believe most top 4 teams did the same too). There was no appetite to fight this out last time and i doubt there will be this time. All we will be left with is peoples opinions as PRL will not break ranks this time as they will then have to answer questions about previous decisions.
Its all very unsatisfactory for all. I just hope the stink does not start to stick to the sport, a small decrease in viewership or sponsorship could be catastrophic.
The problem with regulations is its very difficult to give an exhaustive list of what is and is not allowed.
Most people believe Saracens pushed the boundaries to gain an unfair advantage (many of us believe most top 4 teams did the same too). There was no appetite to fight this out last time and i doubt there will be this time. All we will be left with is peoples opinions as PRL will not break ranks this time as they will then have to answer questions about previous decisions.
Its all very unsatisfactory for all. I just hope the stink does not start to stick to the sport, a small decrease in viewership or sponsorship could be catastrophic.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: samlee99 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 12:41
Quote:WiseWasps!
Potentially caught cheating twice in a few years. This could really get messy and cause major damage to your club. It seems to be gaining momentum. Really takes the shine off your trophy cabinet.
The tarnished trophies lost their shine many years ago.
However as this article is a tissue of lies we can expect The Times to be sued immediately can't we?
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: JO'G (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 15:24
personally speaking I want my Salary Cap Officer to push the boundaries, get me the best players - for the least portion of the salary cap
in the same way that the skills coach directs the players running lines to create gaps when we attack with the ball. Avoiding being penalised for crossing of course
If other clubs don't care to push the boundaries on the Salary Cap - then don't complain when other clubs do; by all means penalise them if they BREAK the rules but pushing the edge is what great rugby teams do all the time
The Barbarians don't play in the league - they play exhibition matches only
in the same way that the skills coach directs the players running lines to create gaps when we attack with the ball. Avoiding being penalised for crossing of course
If other clubs don't care to push the boundaries on the Salary Cap - then don't complain when other clubs do; by all means penalise them if they BREAK the rules but pushing the edge is what great rugby teams do all the time
The Barbarians don't play in the league - they play exhibition matches only
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: TOKS (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 15:42
Haters gonna hate. As and when PRL tell us we've transgressed, and (rightfully) punish us, will I pay any attention.
Back to the rugby.
Back to the rugby.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 16:53
Quote:Even the most anti-sarries noise at the time was that it was a grey area and open to interpretation
I would say this was the attitude/belief of the most pro-Sarries fans at the time.
Once again, grey areas do not cut it. ALL remuneration to players should be reported, it's that simple.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Happy Sarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 18:00
From reading around my sense is that in 2015 when Saracens & Bath settled out of court (thus implying some sort of misdemeanor) several clubs, and I can't quote numbers, heaved a sigh of relief because the spotlight wasn't going to fall upon them as well.
Nigel Wray isn't some genius who has ideas that occur to nobody else and these things get around. If Saracens are found in breach it would be negligent to stop there and assume they are the only bad boys in the class - this is professional sport and sad to say it brings out the boundary-pushers en masse trying to get an edge, sometimes in breach of the spirit & or letter of the law.
I've followed Saracens for 20 + years and don't intend to stop now but would be mighty saddened if they come out on the wrong side of this.
Remember - Humility, Honesty, Discipline & Work Rate, it's up there on the walls!
Nigel Wray isn't some genius who has ideas that occur to nobody else and these things get around. If Saracens are found in breach it would be negligent to stop there and assume they are the only bad boys in the class - this is professional sport and sad to say it brings out the boundary-pushers en masse trying to get an edge, sometimes in breach of the spirit & or letter of the law.
I've followed Saracens for 20 + years and don't intend to stop now but would be mighty saddened if they come out on the wrong side of this.
Remember - Humility, Honesty, Discipline & Work Rate, it's up there on the walls!
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
Date: 07 March, 2019 21:04
Agree totally BTB
European champions 2016 & 2017
European champions 2016 & 2017
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: David@Sarries (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 00:48
Nigel is responding in The Telegraph. “It’s all above board” “PRL can come and review our books anytime”.
Reassuring.
Reassuring.
Re: Times journalist wades in
Posted by: Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 08:54
Unfortunately David it still wont be enough for some as they want to believe its true. Sad really.
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