Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: 1876-Fez (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 06:55
Well we've had the Times and Daily Mail!!
Nigels view... you can only see the 1st bit but reading it in paper form Nigel explains all and says there is nothing to hide.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
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Nigels view... you can only see the 1st bit but reading it in paper form Nigel explains all and says there is nothing to hide.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: TonyTaff (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 08:03
He welcomes any scrutiny. Regrets the attempt to smear. Mick Cleary asks loads of piercing questions, and Nigel doesn't duck them.
It won't silence the Keyboard Onanists though.
(I won't break the copyright - the Torygraph might get shirty if an editor were to do that!)!
£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]
Please read and submit articles for publication.
(*) As at October 31, 2018.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2019 11:11 by TonyTaff.
It won't silence the Keyboard Onanists though.
(I won't break the copyright - the Torygraph might get shirty if an editor were to do that!)!
£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]
Please read and submit articles for publication.
(*) As at October 31, 2018.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2019 11:11 by TonyTaff.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Adey (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 08:12
Does Greenwood ask the question: “So Nigel, as someone who has made millions in property over many years, what do Faz or the Vunipola brothers bring to these property companies?”
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 08:52
Adey, what has that got to do with anything? If you follow that logic through then there is no hope for retiring players starting a new business that they don't have skills for when they were playing. I will tell that to Al Hargreaves, Chris Wyles and Brad Barritt.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 09:37
Quote:Wayoutwest
Adey, what has that got to do with anything? If you follow that logic through then there is no hope for retiring players starting a new business that they don't have skills for when they were playing. I will tell that to Al Hargreaves, Chris Wyles and Brad Barritt.
I agree it's absolutely fine for Nigel and his team to give their time pro-bono to help the players' education. The questions should be along the lines of
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors put any hard cash or made any loans to any of these start-up businesses or any business owned by any relatives of any players?"
In my opinion they can give financial advice but not financial assistance. Any loans should be through banks on commercial terms and rates available to the general public
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors written off any loans, or sold shares in any companies that you own to any players or players' relatives?"
In my opinion any player/owner relationship must come under scrutiny. By all means have experts like Nigel as consultants (free if he's willing) but dont have them as share-holders or board-members of your company and vice versa.
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors awarded any business to players or their companies without clear documented evidence of a competitive tender process?"
I believe many clubs, not just Sarries, are in a grey area potentially providing competitive advantage for start-up businessess. If you or I setup a coffee shop, brewery or burger bar would we also get the same access to on-site pitches, advertising in programmes etc and at the fair market rates? This also applies to after-dinner/motivational speaking engagements - it's a very slippery slope if for example one of a club owner's many companies hired a player to speak at a company event. One could claim that's nothing to do with the salary cap but it might be considered they were awarded the business because of who they were. Now if Nigel wants to pay a Wasps player to give a speech then that's fine - as long as it's not Elliot!
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 10:18
Quote:Marlow NickQuote:Wayoutwest
Adey, what has that got to do with anything? If you follow that logic through then there is no hope for retiring players starting a new business that they don't have skills for when they were playing. I will tell that to Al Hargreaves, Chris Wyles and Brad Barritt.
I agree it's absolutely fine for Nigel and his team to give their time pro-bono to help the players' education. The questions should be along the lines of
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors put any hard cash or made any loans to any of these start-up businesses or any business owned by any relatives of any players?"
In my opinion they can give financial advice but not financial assistance. Any loans should be through banks on commercial terms and rates available to the general public
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors written off any loans, or sold shares in any companies that you own to any players or players' relatives?"
In my opinion any player/owner relationship must come under scrutiny. By all means have experts like Nigel as consultants (free if he's willing) but dont have them as share-holders or board-members of your company and vice versa.
"have you, any of your companies, employees, friends, associates or sponsors awarded any business to players or their companies without clear documented evidence of a competitive tender process?"
I believe many clubs, not just Sarries, are in a grey area potentially providing competitive advantage for start-up businessess. If you or I setup a coffee shop, brewery or burger bar would we also get the same access to on-site pitches, advertising in programmes etc and at the fair market rates? This also applies to after-dinner/motivational speaking engagements - it's a very slippery slope if for example one of a club owner's many companies hired a player to speak at a company event. One could claim that's nothing to do with the salary cap but it might be considered they were awarded the business because of who they were. Now if Nigel wants to pay a Wasps player to give a speech then that's fine - as long as it's not Elliot!
And you Marlow have never benefitted in your life from someone you know as opposed to market rate I am sure - no decorating at mates rates - no meetings set up by someone on the inside or by someone who knows someone. Utter garbage argument and you know it.
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Adey (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 10:38
Quote:Wayoutwest
Adey, what has that got to do with anything? If you follow that logic through then there is no hope for retiring players starting a new business that they don't have skills for when they were playing. I will tell that to Al Hargreaves, Chris Wyles and Brad Barritt.
Bit different giving someone business advice to set them up after retirement and going into business with them isn’t it? I don’t believe he’s a director of Wolfpack Lager or Tiki Tonga coffee.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 11:19
Quote:DoubleChampions
And you Marlow have never benefitted in your life from someone you know as opposed to market rate I am sure - no decorating at mates rates - no meetings set up by someone on the inside or by someone who knows someone. Utter garbage argument and you know it.
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
And there's the problem! I haven't signed a salary cap agreement that says I won't do "mates rates" and that long-term retirement assistance (money as opposed to training) is included in the cap. There may be some interesting interpretations of what's in it out of the clauses regarding funding but what interpretation do you have of section 2.2 clauses a-d or don't these apply because they are garbage too? The only time I recall any statement related to section 2.2 was when Nigel and others demanded were concerned about clause e.
2.2 Objectives of the Regulations
The Regulations were introduced, and are maintained, by PRL to achieve the following
objectives in an appropriate and proportionate manner:
(a) ensuring the financial viability of all Clubs and of the Aviva Premiership competition;
(b) controlling inflationary pressures on Clubs' costs;
(c) providing a level playing field for Clubs;
(d) ensuring a competitive Aviva Premiership competition; and
(e) enabling Clubs to compete in European Competitions
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: TonyTaff (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 11:20
Nigel makes the point that these are investment companies and the asset values can go down as well as up.
The Itoje/Wray company has net liabilities of £286,238 on an asset base of £800k. Losses do seem possible! However, I note that Nigel is not a director, so may not have to disclose any loans from parties related to him.
£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]
Please read and submit articles for publication.
(*) As at October 31, 2018.
The Itoje/Wray company has net liabilities of £286,238 on an asset base of £800k. Losses do seem possible! However, I note that Nigel is not a director, so may not have to disclose any loans from parties related to him.
£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]
Please read and submit articles for publication.
(*) As at October 31, 2018.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: warwick5763 (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 11:41
This stuff is so nieve. If Nigel wanted to pay people extra money he would do it through the incometaxharven branch of a swiss bank. He has not been this successful as an investor by breaking the rules. He doesn't need to. The real financial crimes in rugby are championship players on 9K a year V Jamie Roberts on 500K with his Instagram pictures of posh horses and holidays, not much rugby. Criminal.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 11:54
Quote:Marlow NickQuote:DoubleChampions
And you Marlow have never benefitted in your life from someone you know as opposed to market rate I am sure - no decorating at mates rates - no meetings set up by someone on the inside or by someone who knows someone. Utter garbage argument and you know it.
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
And there's the problem! I haven't signed a salary cap agreement that says I won't do "mates rates" and that long-term retirement assistance (money as opposed to training) is included in the cap. There may be some interesting interpretations of what's in it out of the clauses regarding funding but what interpretation do you have of section 2.2 clauses a-d or don't these apply because they are garbage too? The only time I recall any statement related to section 2.2 was when Nigel and others demanded were concerned about clause e.
2.2 Objectives of the Regulations
The Regulations were introduced, and are maintained, by PRL to achieve the following
objectives in an appropriate and proportionate manner:
(a) ensuring the financial viability of all Clubs and of the Aviva Premiership competition;
(b) controlling inflationary pressures on Clubs' costs;
(c) providing a level playing field for Clubs;
(d) ensuring a competitive Aviva Premiership competition; and
(e) enabling Clubs to compete in European Competitions
My answer to points a - d are that as a club Saracens are treating their players as assets worth having and nothing stops any other club from doing the same - what long term retirement / player welfare schemes do Wasps participate in? - outside of the bare minimum?
It is not the job of Nigel Wray to be concerned with other clubs business / player welfare models.
I reiterate - if we are all above board then the PRL should look at the player welfare being received at Saracens as a guide NOT as a punishment - look after your assets is sound decent management - especially in a sport like Rugby.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 11:59
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
Or maybe Elliot moved, with a year still on his contract, so that he could jump on the gravy train as quickly as possible?
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Or maybe Elliot moved, with a year still on his contract, so that he could jump on the gravy train as quickly as possible?
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:10
Quote:RossM
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
Or maybe Elliot moved, with a year still on his contract, so that he could jump on the gravy train as quickly as possible?
Maybe ..... and if all above aboard - why not?
I am delighted Ross that you are in such a secure position in life that you could turn another opportunity - good for you.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:19
Quote:Adey
Does Greenwood ask the question: “So Nigel, as someone who has made millions in property over many years, what do Faz or the Vunipola brothers bring to these property companies?”
A lot of players in most clubs have companies registered with companies house including Joe Launchbury & Danny Care. Maybe ask them what they do for their companies
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:30
I am delighted Ross that you are in such a secure position in life that you could turn another opportunity - good for you.
If it's a sneer, it's too subtle for me.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
If it's a sneer, it's too subtle for me.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:35
Quote:RossM
I am delighted Ross that you are in such a secure position in life that you could turn another opportunity - good for you.
If it's a sneer, it's too subtle for me.
I understand your pain Ross - Cips / WLR / ED / CW - maybe look at your set up before howling at ours - have a good day x
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:48
Quote:Marlow NickQuote:DoubleChampions
And you Marlow have never benefitted in your life from someone you know as opposed to market rate I am sure - no decorating at mates rates - no meetings set up by someone on the inside or by someone who knows someone. Utter garbage argument and you know it.
If we are above board - inside the cap and the players are getting long term retirement assistance built in - the other clubs and chairman should look at their business models and treatment of players hard - maybe that is why Elliot has moved? Wanted to be treated as an asset rather than a slightly better paid someone else.
And there's the problem! I haven't signed a salary cap agreement that says I won't do "mates rates" and that long-term retirement assistance (money as opposed to training) is included in the cap. There may be some interesting interpretations of what's in it out of the clauses regarding funding but what interpretation do you have of section 2.2 clauses a-d or don't these apply because they are garbage too? The only time I recall any statement related to section 2.2 was when Nigel and others demanded were concerned about clause e.
2.2 Objectives of the Regulations
The Regulations were introduced, and are maintained, by PRL to achieve the following
objectives in an appropriate and proportionate manner:
(a) ensuring the financial viability of all Clubs and of the Aviva Premiership competition;
(b) controlling inflationary pressures on Clubs' costs;
(c) providing a level playing field for Clubs;
(d) ensuring a competitive Aviva Premiership competition; and
(e) enabling Clubs to compete in European Competitions
Hang on though. All the above a-e mention club. Not an individual. If Nigel wants to go into business outside of the club how do you propose that is regulated. Whats to stop me winning the lottery and as a Sarries fan talking to a player and setting up a joint business and investing with them? I am playing devils advocate here but I am not sure how you can legislate for individuals wanting to work together and invest together.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: samlee99 (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:53
It can only be a matter of time before Nigel gets a knighthood for his services to poor underprivileged Premiership rugby players.
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 12:57
Quote:DoubleChampionsQuote:RossM
I am delighted Ross that you are in such a secure position in life that you could turn another opportunity - good for you.
If it's a sneer, it's too subtle for me.
I understand your pain Ross - Cips / WLR / ED / CW - maybe look at your set up before howling at ours - have a good day x
You do display your ignorance citing those 4. I hope you have as good a day as you are wishing me.
SLAVA UKRAINI!
HEROYAM SLAVA!
Re: Telegraph and Nigel Wray...
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 08 March, 2019 13:30
Quote:Wayoutwest
Hang on though. All the above a-e mention club. Not an individual. If Nigel wants to go into business outside of the club how do you propose that is regulated. Whats to stop me winning the lottery and as a Sarries fan talking to a player and setting up a joint business and investing with them? I am playing devils advocate here but I am not sure how you can legislate for individuals wanting to work together and invest together.
Wayoutwest I agree it's difficult to define and almost impossible to police or prove; however if a club claims to be following the salary cap rules then that means all the rules and there's no excuse of "I cant stop someone working together". The rules stipulate a long list of "connected parties" considered in-scope for any payment or payment in kind. I won't bore you with the whole list but as well as the obvious bits about families and employees it includes a catch-all clause ... "any company, trust, partnership, or other body, organisation or mechanism established or operating directly or indirectly in whole or in part for the benefit of or in respect of any or all of the categories of person referred to in this sub-paragraph". I'm no lawyer but I take that to mean anyone who offers "mates rates" to help out their mate [insert director's name here] is contributing to the amount in-scope for the cap.
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