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Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 08:36

...has been in charge of the England football team since September 2016 - he is now, effectively up to 3rd in the all-time England managers.

I've always felt it's a bit of a lie that coaches need to be given 2-3 years to achieve anything. Coaches/managers who take over a national team or a premier league team always seem to imply that they virtually have to teach their players how to catch/kick a ball, when the reality is that even the worst player in the squad is in the top few per cent of their chosen sport.

Eddie achieved similarly rapid success and was lauded for it - but so he should have done. There aren't really any excuses for his wheels having come off so quickly.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 08:50

The difference is that GS has refreshed his team and brought through a mass of young hungry new faces whereas Eddie kept lots of the existing team going and is now paying for it as other teams work them out and they look generally jaded. For the first time in a long while the England Football team looks like they would all give their right arm to be on that pitch.

As an aside, playing Raheem Sterling at the top of a 3-5-2 does remind me of putting Mike Brown on the wing - you can just see when he gets the ball in a strikers position that he isn't a striker...

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: Boldangrey (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 08:54

Southgate's career has progressed through the England Youth(?) set up which has meant he was already well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of many of his players.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:06

Quote:
Boldangrey
Southgate's career has progressed through the England Youth(?) set up which has meant he was already well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of many of his players.

True - but Eddie Jones didn't come from nowhere - nor do any managers of international or premier league teams.

As regards Raheem Sterling - his net contribution to the win over Sweden was immense. Supporters of Mike Brown might argue the same thing. I wouldn't personally, but I can see that he brings a number of qualities to the side.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:15

Southgate has shown so much more class than Jones and comes across as a decent bloke.

Let's hope he can also be a winner as well.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:19

" but Eddie Jones didn't come from nowhere"

He came from Japan, that's pretty far away. My inclination is to think he's the exception rather than the rule. I can't think of that many other examples and the one that comes to mind, JC2 in 2003, was fairly short lived and really rather limited in terms of depth.

I think you might be over doing Gareth Southgate as well. You say he has been in charge for two years and, god knows, England could even go on to win the thing. If they do so they'll have beaten Tunisia, Paraguay, Columbia, Sweden, Croatia and France (I think). There probably have been easier routes, but not many. It's not like coming into the WC we were favourites.

I think putting together a game plan can probably be achieved pretty quick, but then you probably have to evolve that each year anyway. Putting together a team is a much longer process. Football and the international arena are probably different worlds in that respect.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: nick holder (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:22

He has also shown a significant amount of humility when dealing with his players and the media, something Jones has never had. He could learn a lot but as he is so obnoxious I don't suppose he ever bothers to reflect on his self image.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:31

Sterling runs all day and keeps the opposition honest. That will be needed against a Croatia side which looked out on their feet the other day. He could also do with some extra sessions with the mind doctor, as it looks to be a problem for him in front of goal. Fate might be that he scores the winner in the final.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 09:37

Quote:
Optimist
I've always felt it's a bit of a lie that coaches need to be given 2-3 years to achieve anything. Coaches/managers who take over a national team or a premier league team always seem to imply that they virtually have to teach their players how to catch/kick a ball, when the reality is that even the worst player in the squad is in the top few per cent of their chosen sport.
Out of interest - does anyone say that at the international level?
At club level - then absolutely; because you only get to make signings once a year; and have to honour existing contracts (unless you're willing to go the "night of the long knives" or the "contracts don't count on loan" route); so it takes a good 2 years to even get the players you want.

I'd also venture that football is a simpler game than rugby, so it takes less time for tactics to bed in and become instinctive.



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=608
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 10:54

I think Southgate looked at his options and made a plan. Rather than pick Barkley or Wilshere as play makers and go through them, he decided to go with ball players at the back and wing backs. EJ always seems to have a plan but we do not have the grunt to execute the plan. We need more size in the backs or grunt in the pack to play the way EJ wants England to play. Do the players you pick dictate the tactics or the tactics dictate the players you pick?

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 11:22

"I don't suppose he ever bothers to reflect on his self image."

Maybe he does but doesn't think it really makes much difference to his ability to coach?

I'd be delighted if Southgate disproves the saying "nice guys finish last", on more than one level, but it has occurred to me a couple of times.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 12:30

Southgate has never been stupid and he seems to have inspired a team or group. Everyone has bought into his methods and I'm sure he is an excellent man manager having been through the same sorts of mental anguish that may be around at the very top level in high stake games.
I think the squad ultimately respect him because he will have covered everything and they feel they can talk to him.
He still needed results to go for him...but now you think they are so glad to be part of a squad that is working and they have restored an awful lot of respect that we lost when supposedly golden generations blew it.
I'm sure the under age world cup winners have inspired them as well.

There is no doubt we can win it. A bit of luck one way or another is required...
I don't think we need fear anyone left or whether Southgate would allow that...

Jones is done. Imo.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 17:04

Gareth Southgate's success is quite definitely NOT overnight, he took over the U21's in 2013 so he has had a decent history with his young side. He has built on the introduction of young players from Roy Hodgson's time Sterling, Dier, Stones with Kane and Alli all started at that time.

Southgate has just dropped the bullying ways of previous managers, and got rid of anyone who was a bad influence and built a team.

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.

The fact that Harry Kane has a similar attitude is a massive bonus. It's a fantastic run lets hope it continues, My favourite: Harry Maguire, he may give the ball away at times but what he does the rest of the time is inspirational.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 17:12

Quote:
shipwrecked

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.


Remember that those guys became superstars, they all started out as bright young talents - aged 17 in the case of Rooney, 20 for Gerrard. You could be referring to Kane, Maguire, Rashford et al in the same way in a couple of WC's time. Even we were young once SW!

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 19:00

Whatever happens on Wednesday, Southgate has brought pride back to the England team and got the country supporting them again.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 19:02

Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.


Remember that those guys became superstars, they all started out as bright young talents - aged 17 in the case of Rooney, 20 for Gerrard. You could be referring to Kane, Maguire, Rashford et al in the same way in a couple of WC's time. Even we were young once SW!

In which case you'd want Southgate to keep doing what worked and bin them too and find the next generation. Given that most of that generation are already age group World Cup winners, that should not be too tough.

And I hope the FA adopt the model they lucked in to of appointing the next England coach as the U21 manager to bring him through along with the next generation of players. It worked a treat for Germany (until they fell into the same trap).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: Boldangrey (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 19:11

Quote:
shipwrecked
Gareth Southgate's success is quite definitely NOT overnight, he took over the U21's in 2013 so he has had a decent history with his young side. He has built on the introduction of young players from Roy Hodgson's time Sterling, Dier, Stones with Kane and Alli all started at that time.
Southgate has just dropped the bullying ways of previous managers, and got rid of anyone who was a bad influence and built a team.

His success without superstars like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney is proof to those who clamour for superstars at Bath that they simply are not needed to get on.

The fact that Harry Kane has a similar attitude is a massive bonus. It's a fantastic run lets hope it continues, My favourite: Harry Maguire, he may give the ball away at times but what he does the rest of the time is inspirational.


Phew SW. You came dangerously close to mentioning Baxter there.

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 09 July, 2018 19:22

BnG, Now look what you have done!

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 10 July, 2018 07:08

It is a surreal world where all the qualities required to deal with the big issues of today are being demonstrated by a bunch of young men kicking a ball around in Russia and their manager but so sadly lacking in our so-called political 'leaders'

#garethforpm

It would be a landslide

Re: Gareth Southgate.
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 10 July, 2018 08:18

I think any credible opposition would have a field day right now, unfortunately...

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