Current Page: 1 of 4
Relegation
Posted by: ilovebathtime (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 11:50

It's interesting Melville has said today that there will be relegation at the end of this season. Although not said I can't help but feel that Bruce Craig has been on the phone suggesting that it is cancelled.

[www.theguardian.com]

There should always be promotion and relegation from the Premiership. If we were to finish bottom of the league come the end of the season then we must go down to the Championship.

I would prefer to lose every one of our star players and even struggle to be promoted than to find some way of staying up through any lobbying of the RFU. If we were to force a rule change I think that might be it for me, and I'd start watching some local amateur rugby club.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 11:55

Agree with all of the above. I don't think i'd go as far as to say i'd stop watching Bath - but it would be very embarrassing.

Given that the Club is hoping to be building the stadium during next season, a year in the Championship, with a parachute payment and lower crowds for that season might actually be a logistical benefit!

Re: Relegation
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 12:33

Totally agree, but whilst it's a topic that comes up every year, this season I think it's more of a possibility than ever. By Xmas there's usually a club that's cut off from the rest and it could be argued they 'belong'' in the Championship for at least a season. This year a whole load of clubs are in the relegation struggle. In the eyes of their owners, they're perhaps too good to go down. I also think there is an argument that this tight battle to stay up is affecting the quality of rugby on offer, and the fact that a shedload of new money is on its way makes it even more important that the rugby is entertaining and that the owners will want to be a part of this wealthier Premiership. To my mind, relegation tests how teams cope with pressure and is an important part of sport. Bristol, for one, seem to be handling that pressure and playing positive rugby. We seem to be struggling due to our mental fragility. The one argument I would put for ring fencing is that once Irish are promoted, in the next three seasons which other Championship club could cope with the financial demands of the Premium without becoming another London Welsh?

Re: Relegation
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 12:59

Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.

The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:04

Surely the CVC deal would influence this to a degree?



[Adoptee 18/19: Man Mountain Dave Attwood, back in the BB&W and ready to smash]

Re: Relegation
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:06

Quote:
ilovebathtime
It's interesting Melville has said today that there will be relegation at the end of this season. Although not said I can't help but feel that Bruce Craig has been on the phone suggesting that it is cancelled.

Whilst there is support for relegation, is there a general belief that BC wanted it cancelled?



Darren Atkins Age 21 years, Fullback, 6 ft 1 in, 13 st 4 lbs. Chance to shine in 18/19 with AW's injury!

https://i.ibb.co/sbQsmcr/darren-atkins-5.jpg

Re: Relegation
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:09

I have often thought that it should be possible to have a ring fence for say 2 or 3 seasons then allow a promotion/relegation season. This would allow more entertainment and budgets to be easier to plan whilst not taking away the chance of getting in.

A compromise that might actually work. Call it Prexit if you like.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: Shorty Shorty iiv (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:21

I think itís very naive to think there are benefits of getting relegated, the risks of so much higher... Whose to say that our benefactor, who is letís face it is financially keeping us alive, will hang about, and that weíll get promoted straight back up, LI arenít wayahead like Bristol weíre last season and got beaten last weekend, and Yorkshire Carnegie look like they are heading down another tier.

The way I see it is if the CVC sale is going to come off Iíd imagine the end of relegation will be part of the deal, and Irish who are a shareholder being brought back up as the 13th team. Six sides/shareholders could easily be relegated, and if I was any one of them Iíd be getting all the others round he table to lobby for the end of relegation, or otherwise Iím wouldnít sell my shares and risk the CVC deal falling down for everyone. None of them want to relegated and the likes of Wasps are desperate for the money. Itís business after all.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:22

Not a fan of relegation/promotion. It really doesn't add much of anything. Exeter are obviously the success story, but otherwise it's just a yoyo effect or a Championship club goes out of business, and has been for a long time.

Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve but clubs nearer the bottom of the table might actually trust some of their homegrown or younger players to develop rather than signing over the hill journeymen like Andy Goode, just to stay up.

Once clubs like Ealing get more than 500 strong crowds, in a decade or so, reevaluate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 13:23 by ballsout.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: GM (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:33

Although Mr Melville has said no relegation this season that doesnít preclude a 13 team Prem next season - so the relegated club could be handed a get out of jail card by fellow Prem clubs for next season.

That would leave the need for a sweetheart deal for the Championship clubs - the RFU would also love a chance to re-negotiate the crippling deal they did with Prem rugby too. Perhaps they could then re-employ some of the community rugby staff they have just let go?

So.....plenty of horse trading to be done and well-healed owners of Champ clubs (Ealing, Carnegie, Coventry etc) lining up good lawyers!

Re: Relegation
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:49

" It really doesn't add much of anything. "

it literally adds a point to playing for half the premiership clubs. Inclusing us most of the time.

"Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve"

Why? Will a whole bunch of better players somehow become available?

This idea that we'll start throwing the ball around because there's not relegation is pure BS. That implies that because we can't get relegated we don't want to win as much, I don't think it will happen, but if it was the case how is that a good thing?

"The rugby's better because one side has no motivation to win, they're out of the league, but there's no chance of relegation, so what do they care?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 13:50 by DanWiley.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:51

Quote:
DanWiley
Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.
The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

I would argue that Briz would be the most likely to be moved as Bristol is the least appealing place to visit for away fans.



Tom Dunn - Adopted player 2018/19

Re: Relegation
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 13:57

Was completely prepared for relegation instead of merging with Brizzle all those years ago and nothing has changed for me since - if we go down it is because we deserve it and redemption can only come through the energy and skill to get promoted

Staying up through the trap door being nailed shut would be immensely humiliating and. for me, is something that runs totally against the principles of competitive team sport

The likes of Ealing, Carnegie, Coventry and others deserve the opportunity to join the top table

The only way I could accept it would be through a one off major re-organisation to, say 2 equal divisions of 8 from which there then would be 'normal' relegation and promotion in subsequent years [plus play offs at the top of course]

At least that would reduce player workload though would also reduce club income so ain't gonna happen

Re: Relegation
Posted by: ilovebathtime (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:04

Completely disagree that relegation doesn't achieve anything.

If you get rid of it you are in the position where English cricket was in the 90's where you have bred a lot of comfortable players, who half way through a season have nothing much to play for and winning or losing doesn't particularly matter. This then translates to the international game.

If you are a young player do you want to be gifted a place in a team, or do you want to compete and show you are better than the over the hill journeymen like Andy Goode.

With the attrition rate in rugby I'm not sure lack of opportunity is holding back many young players in any case.

Exeter is the example that ambitious clubs should be trying to follow. Pull up the draw bridge and what is there to play for in the Championship?

Re: Relegation
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:08

Quote:
BathMatt53
Surely the CVC deal would influence this to a degree?

CVC are going to inject £240m (£20m per club) into a sport that hasn't made a brass farthing in profit in 20 years of professionalism. (Total losses across 20 years, on the back of fag packet = £1m x 12 clubs x 20 Ö c. £240m??). That would imply that CVC have got to squeeze an additional c. £500m over the next 20 years out of the Premiership in order to reverse the position and make a bit of profit.

'to a degree' doesn't go anywhere near the influence they will have. As fans, we're not really in a position to complain, because the alternative is simply to say to the likes of Bruce, Nigel and others, 'we don't want CVC, so is it ok if you guys keep on subbing us'.

But if that deal goes through, I imagine anyone over the age of about 40 is about to say goodbye to much of what drew them to the game of rugby union in the first place.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:09

500k fans on their doorstep and a 27k stadium Briz aren't going anywhere.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:19

Quote:
DanWiley
" It really doesn't add much of anything. "
it literally adds a point to playing for half the premiership clubs. Inclusing us most of the time.

"Ringfence and the quality of rugby will not only improve"

Why? Will a whole bunch of better players somehow become available?

This idea that we'll start throwing the ball around because there's not relegation is pure BS. That implies that because we can't get relegated we don't want to win as much, I don't think it will happen, but if it was the case how is that a good thing?

"The rugby's better because one side has no motivation to win, they're out of the league, but there's no chance of relegation, so what do they care?"

Last year the fight for 6th place and Champions cup rugby literally came down to the last weekend. If youíre saying that the point of playing for half the Premiership is to avoid relegation then thatís immensely sad.

The last match against Sale was one of the worst Iíve ever seen. Two sides in 10th and twelfth playing turgid, safety first rugby. It wouldnít have happened if there was no fear of relegation.

If there were Championship clubs beating down the door with crowds of 6000k+ Iíd think fine. But there arenít, at present.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2018 14:20 by ballsout.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: Sit_Down (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:28

Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
Please, never believe the suggestion ringfencing will be temporary. It won't be.
The fact that there are no obvious promotable teams other than irish and whoever goes down doesn't mean there won't ever be. Moreover you've just shafted any ambition a lower level club has.

Following ringfencing Bath (or someone near by, but probably us) will be moving. If you were to pick the locations of the 12 (or whatever) teams that you want in the top flight you wouldn't chose Bath (and Exeter, Wuss and Briz). "In order to maximise attendances and geographical usage at LEAST one of those clubs is moving. It won't be Briz with their big city surroundings, it won't be Exeter. Wuss might get sent to Birmingham and we'll be lucky to be on the same side of the country.

That might sound OTT, but I see it as a genuine possibility come ringfencing.

I would argue that Briz would be the most likely to be moved as Bristol is the least appealing place to visit for away fans.

I could argue the same about Bath. Thankfully not all rugby fans have your small mindedness.

Re: Relegation
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:31

All of these arguments have been thrown up before of course. For every view there's a counter- argument, for example the point that relegation keeps our league competitive and helps our national team is rather undermined by the success of Ireland and New Zealand.I too believe that the league system should be a pyramid, but I'm sure Bedford didn't want promotion when they were in the play-offs and there are criteria to be met that preclude most clubs. Then there are the potential pitfalls of overextending yourself to be competitive. As to the idea of rugby abandoning its club structure, I accept it's a possibility, but unlikely. Cricket is trying it with this 100 competition, and I hope it fails miserably, but don't see that rugby has to go down that route. As to ring- fencing making rugby better, I'd just suggest it might be more entertaining without the fear of relegation, but whether this equates to BETTER rugby is a moot point!

Re: Relegation
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 05 December, 2018 14:31

All of these arguments have been thrown up before of course. For every view there's a counter- argument, for example the point that relegation keeps our league competitive and helps our national team is rather undermined by the success of Ireland and New Zealand.I too believe that the league system should be a pyramid, but I'm sure Bedford didn't want promotion when they were in the play-offs and there are criteria to be met that preclude most clubs. Then there are the potential pitfalls of overextending yourself to be competitive. As to the idea of rugby abandoning its club structure, I accept it's a possibility, but unlikely. Cricket is trying it with this 100 competition, and I hope it fails miserably, but don't see that rugby has to go down that route. As to ring- fencing making rugby better, I'd just suggest it might be more entertaining without the fear of relegation, but whether this equates to BETTER rugby is a moot point!

Current Page: 1 of 4
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net