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Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: centrethere (IP Logged)
Date: 06 January, 2019 20:29

Hope Wayne Barnes can join the refs panel/ advisers - it really ins't easy for the refs, the laws don't help, so a lot of guidance is needed - written as well I suspect. Otherwise end up like football - anyone's guess

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: samlee99 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 11:18

Quote:
WarriorOllie
I believe the game is facing a crisis in terms of the standard of refereeing at the moment. I have thought this for a while but the standard of officiating in the premiership at least over that last fortnight has been absolutely woeful.
I say a crisis because I don’t think the best teams are coming out on top of games and the officials are having too much influence on the result. The whole point of competitive sport is that the best team wins, not who can be on the right side of 50:50 calls. High tackle, choke tackle, tip tackle, scrummaging, how long you have to ‘use the ball’, no arm tackles, anything to do with aerial challenges/line outs, hurdling tackles and as for officiating the breakdown I am afraid that has just turned into a guessing game like the scrum.

If it gets to the point a season ticket holder of 10+ years has no idea what the bloke in the middle is doing I dread to think what it must be like for new spectators to the sport.

Anyway rant over. Great second half performance yesterday. Feel like an idiot for questioning Teo’s commitment now because he had Jamie Roberts in his back pocket all game.

I also think the standard of playing in the premiership at least over that last fortnight has been absolutely woeful particularly with regard to discipline.

Much to improve on both sides.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Sutton Warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 12:39

I am not wholly sure but I suspect that until the scrum has been completed play has not properly recommenced hence the need for a series of reset scrums. Ref has to conclude try would have been scored before PT ( i think) so perhaps legitimate doubt - but equally lack of fundamental decision making ability. Can't stand Doyle - awful awful ref based on watching him in many matches

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 12:46

I have seen plenty of penalty tries given on a multiple offence basis - or when a scrum has totally collapsed under the strain

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Eternal optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 13:58

‘Twas good to Courtney Lawes apologising to the ref yesterday for his infringement in a ruck.
I do think that players need to shoulder some of the refereeing issues this season to be honest
The claiming, backchat and play acting that is starting to appear more in the game would certainly wind me up if I were reffing
They aren’t perfect, but there again no one is but perhaps less of the above would give more time and energy into actually playing the game.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: KenDoddsDadsDogsDead (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 14:09

Always insightful watching the full match back.

The ref is never as bad as seemed when watching live.

I'm not sure he got that much wrong, apart from not awarding penalty try (He did mitigate this by dishing out yellows).

Worst error on the night was from a ref. ass. (not JP) when Weir kicked to touch from penalty (mid-way through 2nd half). Bath player clearly jumps from outside the playing area and knocked the ball back in. Surely that's touch ??

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: KenDoddsDadsDogsDead (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 14:14

Quote:
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead
Always insightful watching the full match back.
The ref is never as bad as seemed when watching live.

I'm not sure he got that much wrong, apart from not awarding penalty try (He did mitigate this by dishing out yellows).

Worst error on the night was from a ref. ass. (not JP) when Weir kicked to touch from penalty (mid-way through 2nd half). Bath player clearly jumps from outside the playing area and knocked the ball back in. Surely that's touch ??

One question though - why didn't first Bath yellow (and maybe second one) come back on - off for more than 10 minutes. The clock was never stopped

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Abberley (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 14:16

Quote:
Eternal optimist
‘Twas good to Courtney Lawes apologising to the ref

..and Burrell[?] admitting he hadn't grounded the ball when asked by Luke Pearce.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: IanRed (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 14:26

Kddd apparently the ref stopped his watch during resets, hence less than 10 minutes of actual play from what I read.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: KenDoddsDadsDogsDead (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 14:29

Quote:
IanRed
Kddd apparently the ref stopped his watch during resets, hence less than 10 minutes of actual play from what I read.

Makes sense - the TMO said a couple of times "The time is yours" or something like that - wondered what he was on about.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 15:08

Can a player come back on to the pitch when a penalty is awarded? Does that count as play stopped? You can't finish a game by awarding a penalty or free kick. As such, is the definition of stopping play awarding a scrum or line out (although not one from a penalty)? If so, a player cannot come back onto the field of play when the clock is red.

This then leads to whether you can substitute a player, other than for injury or to bring on a front row if one gets carded?

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: KenDoddsDadsDogsDead (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 15:18

Quote:
Fiver
This then leads to whether you can substitute a player, other than for injury or to bring on a front row if one gets carded?

I think it happened in the France/Wales match that went on forever. I.e. sin-binning time ran out and player came back on. Suspect a loop hole has been closed now.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 15:28

I did read the laws but couldn't work out what constituted a stoppage.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: TeflonTed (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2019 16:54

The France Wales 100min shambles hinged on Barnes knowing that he had to accept the word of a French Doctor, who he clearly didn’t believe, but could not argue with.

It was cheating by the French, pure and simple, Barnes couldn’t stop it since it was a matter of medical opinion.

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 18:56

Quote:
centrethere
Quite happy that JP Doyle isn't refereeing - He's too pedantic and it can become the JP Doyle show.
(Still trying to work out how stepping over a tackler with no arms from last week when he reffed was a particularly useful intervention - hope the Monday refs meeting discussed it, and told him to not try to set precedence on the rugby book of laws. (Sm102)

I've only just caught up with that on the highlights show that I recorded. JP made the correct decision, it seemed to me. It falls within law 9.11 and there's even a video of a player jumping over an attempted tackle to illustrate the sort of conduct that is contrary to the law.

I don't think it was clear that the attempted tackle didn't involve arms, but if true, I can't see how this prompted the ball carrier to jump over the tackler: that decision would already have been taken, given how quickly it happened, I think. Even if it was a no arms tackle, it's the picture that the ref sees and I think seeing someone hurdling a player trying to make a tackle is going to create more of an impression than whether the tackler is clearly attempting to wrap, in my view.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 19:07

Quote:
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead
Worst error on the night was from a ref. ass. (not JP) when Weir kicked to touch from penalty (mid-way through 2nd half). Bath player clearly jumps from outside the playing area and knocked the ball back in. Surely that's touch ??

No, I think JP got that right,

Quote:
Law 18.2.b.
The ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal if:
...
A player jumps, from within or outside the playing area, and catches the ball, and then lands in the playing area, regardless of whether the ball reached the plane of touch.

If the player is allowed to catch the ball as long as he lands in the playing area then I think knocking the ball back in is ok too.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

Re: Sir for the Bath game
Posted by: Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 20:08

Quote:
KenDoddsDadsDogsDead
Quote:
IanRed
Kddd apparently the ref stopped his watch during resets, hence less than 10 minutes of actual play from what I read.

Makes sense - the TMO said a couple of times "The time is yours" or something like that - wondered what he was on about.

Law 5.7 provides,

"A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:

a. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play. This includes when the scrum, lineout or restart kick is taken incorrectly.
b. The referee awards a free-kick or penalty.
c. A penalty is kicked directly to touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player."

It seemed clear that the ball never went dead once the 80 minutes expired because there was a penalty or free kick awarded, or a scrum didn't complete. As I understand it, the ball going dead means going into touch, touch in goal, over the dead ball line, or a minor infringement that would result in a scrum occurs after the 80 minutes is up.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

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