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Another death in France
Posted by: Eternal optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 09:43

It’s being reported of a fourth death of a young player in France in 8 months.

If the authorities don’t get a grip on this then I fear for the longer term future of the game with parents taking there kids to other sports


Rugby post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 10:53 by Powick Eastander.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Faithful_City (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 09:55

If the game evolves as per the article and avoidance rather than brutal contact becomes the driver we may well see smaller more athletic players, a faster and more exciting game full of line breaks instead of bish-bash-bosh.

JP

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 10:27

I'd happily watch smaller, more skillful players. On Saturday we watched Bryce high tackled by two Bath players simultaneously. Bryce is very tall, there is no need or excuse for a high tackle on him.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Faithful_City (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 10:51

agreed and the coaches are coaching that type of tackle!

JP

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 10:58

Something needs to be done - as the game is reaching a crisis point really.

You don't want to blunt the games edge, but there comes a point where the non-nannying 'its not meant to be a pillow fight' attitude gives way to an absurd level of risk all things considered.

As it now seems the majority of careers are ending with injury - and now even deaths are occurring...a crisis point needs to be acknowledged. I don't think that is alarmist.

A sensible start would be to discourage, through the laws if necessary, for coaching of the choke tackle to stop.

This will probably raise a higher philosophical question about the nature of being competitive - and when does will to win have to concede to common sense.

An example I can think of is from the world of motorsport, and the tragic demise of Jules Bianchi.

For those who are unfamiliar, he was driving past the scene of an incident where a piece of plant was lifting a car out of a gravel trap under waved yellow flags (which mean slow right down and be prepared to stop). He went past in wet weather, on very worn tyres and only a scintilla under racing speed. Sadly he left the circuit, hit the vehicle moving the crashed car, and sustained head injuries that later proved fatal.

Some, including Lewis Hamilton, basically said 'we are competing, so we will slow down as little as possible' - and it should be the FIAs responsibility to mitigate, and do other things.


Now - in my opinion, I do not for the life of me know why that principal of competition cannot be sacrficied for the sake of safety. Not so much for drivers, no one wants a death, but they know the risks - but what if, heaven forfend, a marshal was killed?

I simply don't understand why the teams and drivers cannot be grown ups about it and accept responsibility on these things without the need for further regulatory intervention. In the case of motor sport it isn't even needed - they just need to follow the existing rules properly!

But I know many disagree with me.

It is a real moral maze this one.

I can imagine a lot of coaches viewing a voluntary move away from this sort of practice as 'soft'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2019 11:10 by TVM Rides Again.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Eternal optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 11:03

As a parent of a young player it is a concern. The only injury he had ever suffered was a head injury
There will always be the odd time when a defender is caught wrong footed and throws sn arm out in a last ditch attempt but fit me it’s the “clearing out” with the shoulder at force.
These young lads are getting bigger and stronger than ever.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Abmatt (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 12:11

The tackles are definitely getting more brutal, and higher. Looking more like the contacts in American football, where the players are wearing a lot more protection.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 19:50

The Fatialofa yellow card was only given as it was very slightly more obvious than what almost all other big lads do at pretty much every breakdown. None of them clearout under the tackle laws, it's always a shoulder.

Neck rolls, why are they still happening? The same with taking players out in the air, high shots, and all other acts of thuggery. The simple answer is that they don't always end in a card. How many high tackles were there at the weekend and none received a card. If they always ended in a card, it would stop because it would have to.

Would it ruin the game? No, it might ruin one game, the next game the message would have got across and the game moves on. However, it's up to the referees as we've all seen what happens with crooked scrum feeds...............

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: centrethere (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2019 20:52

Is the nipple line law still in trial? Surely it could be brought in anytime if the powers that be wished. Assume at present it won't even be in for the World Cup which isn't good.

Clearing out is another technique gone bad, with use of the shoulder and Ross Batty's perfect example of how dangerous it is, when rolling out becomes a neck roll.

World Rugby and the affiliated unions are slow to act - as the biggest nations have the biggest hitters, and are he biggest infringers, so self interest is being perpetuated.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Sutton Warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 12:55

Neck rolls are banned- make it mandatory yellow card ( if it is not already). Lower tackle height - apart form dealing with players who carry the bally in to contact but go in head first ( rather than shoulder) it is an obvious move. All the grumbling about " gone soft" is prehistoric nonsense - taking people off above the shoulders in any way at all should no longer acceptable and then is the end of the debate in my view ( and make it clear enough that there can be no marginal decisions). The issue in the NFL is that too many players attack the opponent with no arms or shoulder and just go in helmet first at any height - there are hideous head on head tackles every week. Clearing someone out of a ruck is part of the game - but taking someone out off the edge with a run up and then splattering them 5 yards back is both dangerous and a cheap shot in many ways. The longer term issue is one of new players coming in to the game - bigger, stronger, quicker, more more more often and giving up sooner.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 13:56

Every year we hear certain infringements are going to be carded, only for referees to say there was no malice and go for a penalty only.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: West Brom Warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 14:27

I would question if I would want my son playing rugby when he is older at anything more than a very low level (no issue with junior rugby etc). Even at university and National League levels the game is getting more brutal as a collision rather than contact sport it originally was. Until professionalism kicked in the sport was for all shapes and sizes, the props would plod along and the 10 got rid of the ball well before contact occurred. Now the forwards are as quick as the backs, all the players are heavier, more dynamic and the tackle tactics are resulting in more brutal hits to the head and main joints like knees and hips. I fear for this current generation of players and there long term health, how many will have knees and hips replaced before they are 40?

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 16:17

I think it goes back to the point TVM made about F1. Some people want to win. If winning means pushing everything to the limit then so be it, because if they don't, someone else will.

If we go back 20 or so years, remember what happened when Lomu turned up. Australia rocked up with Matt Burke and Joe Roff, both very big for wings at that time. Everyone now needs big strong players where before little guys ruled supreme.

I still remember watching Tony Underwood trying to tackle Lomu and getting swatted out of the way. Up until that point Tony was a very good test winger.

It's down to the players at the end of the day. The risks are not hidden. If they want to be top flight players then they make a choice. It's the same as motorbike racers, many of whom retire into wheelchairs.

I'm not sure there is anything the governing bodies can do about player size and how hard they hit. You can try to stop high tackles, tackles in the air etc..., but when one big guy clatters full speed into another with a legal challenge...........

Team Sky called it 'Marginal Gains'. Should Wiggins have taken his TUEs? It wasn't illegal, perhaps unethical depending on your point of view.

It's all about winning.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 16:37

Quote:
centrethere
Is the nipple line law still in trial? Surely it could be brought in anytime if the powers that be wished. Assume at present it won't even be in for the World Cup which isn't good.

The nipple line law is still being trialled in the Championship Cup. If it is deemed a success it will probably get a bigger trial in a top tier comp, perhaps Super Rugby next summer.

I don't think it's a case of World Rugby and the major unions being slow to act, more a case of being fearful of the law of unintended consequences. They want to make sure that any safety-related amendments work, and don't make things worse.

Where I do think World Rugby have questions to answer is in their inconsistent, even contradictory enforcement of current laws. Leigh Halfpenny still hasn't returned to play following the challenge by Samu Kerevi and is set to miss at least the start of the Six Nations. It was unacceptable that not even a penalty was given at the time but completely baffling that there was no citing afterwards.



Whatever you do, do it safely!

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Fiver (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 16:42

I thought the law regarding the Kerevi style challenge was clear, but obviously not. The way I understood it was if you are the defender and you put yourself into a position you'd better make sure you can get out of it without hurting someone.

I'm either wrong, or the officials have used their interpretation again. Kerevi clearly put himself into a position where contact would happen, and he decided he'd rather it hurt Leigh and not himself. However, I'm not a referee.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 16:43

Quote:
Brummagem Bertie
Quote:
centrethere
Is the nipple line law still in trial? Surely it could be brought in anytime if the powers that be wished. Assume at present it won't even be in for the World Cup which isn't good.

The nipple line law is still being trialled in the Championship Cup.

Heaven help the unusually high nippled.....

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 16:46

I momentarily considered referring to it as the C Cup, but thought better of it ...



Whatever you do, do it safely!

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: SixNineOne (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 17:26

I've been to quite a few games in the so called C Cup. In the first match I thought the trial law made a significant difference - lower tackles more reminiscent of the game I played in my youth! A not surprising result was that there seemed to be more offloads in the tackle which is generally a good thing (unless done by the opposition team...) Perhaps an unexpected consequence was that players tended to wriggle and roll a good yard or two after the tackle before presenting the ball but this could be easily stamped out with consistent refereeing (I wish...) But having seen several more C Cup games, the impact of the trial law is now feeling less apparent. Maybe the refs have got more lenient or the players have got better at judging the fine line of legality as interpreted by some of the less experienced refs who have been officiating. From what I've seen, the trial law may help a bit but it is by no means the whole solution.

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: TVM Rides Again (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 17:40

Would you say you have gotten to grips with the C Cup?

Re: Another death in France
Posted by: SixNineOne (IP Logged)
Date: 10 January, 2019 18:29

I'm always willing to try!

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