Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: BdeB (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:26

With the various squads announced and Wasps players seeming to be ignored it is hard not to conclude that we aren't rated as serious top level contenders. Listening to some podcasts Wasps are hardly mentioned despite leading the table by 5 points. I was trying to work out why that might be.
To be fair I would still put us third out of the big three simply because Saracens and Exeter have an efficiency that we simply can't match. In the big games it often comes down to the fewest mistakes made and we simply make too many.
I think we deserve to be where we are, I don't think it is a mistake but I think we might lack something when it comes to winning the big ones. Again I am not saying it won't happen, we have the skill level, but we will need that so far elusive 80min performance.
I would say we are a na´ve team and lack a bit of nastiness. A comment by a Bristol fan struck me when he said we were the cleanest team he had seen this season. Admirable as that is I do wonder if we are too nice. Where we have been beaten it is by teams that are more streetwise. Sarries are the ultimate example of this but Exeter aren't far behind.
it is galling facing this and makes Sarries very hard to like but it is exactly how we were perceived when we were the most streetwise team in the league personified by Lol.

I think we have made progress this season and our league position reflects that but where we need to develop further is that streetwiseness. Maybe we need to recruit a few players with an edge. In the squad at the moment I can't think of anyone I would put in that category. I would love to see us recruit someone like Genge at the moment he is one of my least favourite players but if he played for us I think he would be my favourite.

maybe we aren't rated because we haven't sown that edge that is needed to win at the very top level yet. Here is to being proved wrong and the boys take these slights as motivation to prove Gats and EJ wrong and we go on to win the Premiership.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Hucks (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:38

Feels pretty familiar. 2003 - 2005 we absolutely dominated. But the press never talked about us - only ever about Gloucester, tigers and Bath. And only Lawrence, worzle and josh got the England recognition. Kinga got stuck behind wilko, Grayson, catt, Hodgson?. Shaw got into the World Cup squad but only as 4th or 5th choice. Waters was always overlooked. So too will green, volley...

The best answer to this is to win the league. Finish top. Win the final. To do that we'll have beaten sarries twice or sarries and chiefs in the space of three weeks.

Meanwhile the post lions season always throws up an interesting mix. Sarries should probably struggle early doors and they'll be carrying 8-10 knackered guys who are also looking at a heavy England autumn. So with most of the wasps squad able to hit the beach and then come together for a good pre season we should have every chance to hit the ground running again. All the team can do is start winning stuff and keep winning it.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Spikey910 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:39

I think there's something in this and I couldn't agree more with your last sentence, I'd love that to happen.

It's a fine line, we have players who can impose themselves, do we want negative, niggle players?

I suspect there's also the view that even if we're respected, that our style of play is fairly unique and that our players couldn't adapt to other systems. Not something I think, and proven by Elliott thsi year, but I can see others thinking that way especially if England are looking to develop Sarracens style systems and more rigid patterns of play. Exeter play a much more structured game than us as well.

It does annoy me that it seems to be almost regarded by some as a bit of an accident that we're top of the league.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:40

Very good points and i agree with everything you said apart from winning the premiership, as a sarries fan obviously i want us to win.

I do think you need more edge though and that is something Eddie Jones is very particular about hence, why he likes Genge and Sinckler as there are no nonsense hard nosed players.

A good example is Itoje, last year and the year before, he was a very good player but was not hard enough for Jones and he wanted Itoje to become more of an enforcer and to be harder.

This season, you see him in every scrap and he has become less of a nice guy on the field, While this has made many fans of other teams dislike him compared to last year, Eddie is never short of praise for him these days. Billy v is also more vocal and more of a nuisance this year.

Most of your players like Launchers, Hughes, wade, cipriani are great wonderful players but i will not describe any of those guys are hard nosed players and i think if you look at the successful teams like New Zealand with Kaino and anyone who plays 6 or sarries, they have hard nosed players

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Spikey910 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:41

Quote:
Hucks
Feels pretty familiar. 2003 - 2005 we absolutely dominated. But the press never talked about us - only ever about Gloucester, tigers and Bath. And only Lawrence, worzle and josh got the England recognition. Kinga got stuck behind wilko, Grayson, catt, Hodgson?. Shaw got into the World Cup squad but only as 4th or 5th choice. Waters was always overlooked. So too will green, volley...
The best answer to this is to win the league. Finish top. Win the final. To do that we'll have beaten sarries twice or sarries and chiefs in the space of three weeks.

Meanwhile the post lions season always throws up an interesting mix. Sarries should probably struggle early doors and they'll be carrying 8-10 knackered guys who are also looking at a heavy England autumn. So with most of the wasps squad able to hit the beach and then come together for a good pre season we should have every chance to hit the ground running again. All the team can do is start winning stuff and keep winning it.

Like the thinking on next year!

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: cb@wasps (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 12:46

Quote:
With the various squads announced and Wasps players seeming to be ignored it is hard not to conclude that we aren't rated as serious top level contenders

Maybe they have been reading the views of Wasps fans on this board too much smiling smiley

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Heathen (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 13:29

Perhaps the selectors also looked at the Wasps players who did not get selected and decided that our overseas contingent make too much of a contribution to our performances.

Given how many left field selections that Eddie made, Josh would have been worth a shout.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: SFY (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 13:36

The two are definitely connected, without seeming to put down the achievements of this year Wasps have been missing fewer players than say Sarries during the international windows, placing you top of the league thanks to games won and bonus points earned during these periods.

The obvious answer to critics is to win the premiership semi/ final against Sarries/ Exeter when both first 23s are out but by that point it is too late for the summer tours.

Like it or not it is essentially why the play offs exist to address the missing players for large parts of the season.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Andy1210 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 13:46

I think it's a really fair point from BdeB and have thought for a while - particularly since the turn of the year - that we are seriously lacking at the breakdown.

Watch the other sides in the top four, you will see all of them slowing the ball down, keeping players trapped in to get a pen, taking out players in and around the ruck, holding on to them off the ball etc. We barely get a card (touch wood!).

It really struck me at Exeter how we'd score a great try, then Chiefs would go through ruck after ruck without us ever looking like slowing the ball or getting a turnover until they got one back, even with a man sent off. It's been much the same since and must contribute to our appalling defence.

We definitely need to be more abrasive and uncompromising. We've even got into the bad habit of not putting sides away when we're on top, leaving them in with a shout. We could do with a prop, hooker, second row and back row that are grumpy and have an edge to them.

Seems like the days of LBND and Grewcock going at each other, Chabal, Back, Ryan etc are long gone.

We're definitely a bit soft and too nice!

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Dgwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 14:58

Quote:
SFY
The two are definitely connected, without seeming to put down the achievements of this year Wasps have been missing fewer players than say Sarries during the international windows, placing you top of the league thanks to games won and bonus points earned during these periods.
The obvious answer to critics is to win the premiership semi/ final against Sarries/ Exeter when both first 23s are out but by that point it is too late for the summer tours.

Like it or not it is essentially why the play offs exist to address the missing players for large parts of the season.

To be fair to Wasps this season we have lost 5/6 players to the AI and 6N periods and they have been when we've dropped the most points. Of the current top 4 only Ex seem to have got off fairly lightly.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Dgwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 15:03

A lot of the Wasps players haven't played - or excelled - an awful lot in high pressure games which probably doesn't help. That will come for some of them through experience, however just through the addition of one or two hard nosed leaders it could put the team into a stronger position for the big games.

As in any sport once you've got the experience of winning it improves the mindset no end. Sarries are the best example of this going.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: DBee (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 15:46

I think if possibly put Symons in that 'nasty' bracket. I think I saw a YouTube video where players referred to him as the 'hard man' of the squad. We certainly look more aggressive at the breakdown. I think against Worcester a few weeks ago he hit some rucks pretty hard and the speed of the game went up.
He is only one player and I agree with others. We lack that hard nosed edge that others seem to have.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: ricohchezwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 16:55

Jones has a long term plan to win the World Cup in 2019, thats all he cares about, he need to see which young players will push the established ones, forcing the cream to the top.

he knows that haskell Wood Hartley for example will not be good enough, fit enough for then and he needs to test replacements, he already knows what some players who have been left out can do and needs to see more.

Yarde Beaumont Haley Roko, Goode robson etc have all been looked at and some will appear again and some i am afraid will not....as for Wade i don't know what else he can do except buy a medieval rack and grow a few inches, in the mean time he should book a holiday to Australia be fit be available and wait for a call.....



Not a Doctor and not a troll!!

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Chilham (IP Logged)
Date: 20 April, 2017 18:02

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Reading between the lines of comments made in interviews about Christian turning up late for training, I can't imagine that his laid-back attitude endears him to International coaches. We love him for it. Fast Eddie and Gats, maybe not so much. I'd take him to Argentina as, I sudpect, would most rugby fans and supporters, Wasps or not.

Neither Joe nor Dan seem to be able to hold down the starting shirt for us. Symons too. That probably hasn't helped their cause.

For me, from a Wasps perspective, the only shocker in the England squad is Tommy Taylor. He's the real deal in my book.



[onceawasp.com]

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: WONKYWASP1 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 April, 2017 11:39

As the naive dippy Wasps fan that I am I prefer to support a club of which I can be truely proud, and not one full of Ashtons, Itojes (fine when in Sarries Academy), Nowells, etc. for whom I would be constantly apologising. For our players, I want them to be top of the pile but not by what is in effect cheating. Thank you, Wasps, for playing clean, and 'hard-nosed' is fine. The next step up from 'hard-nosed' isn't.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Snewbs (IP Logged)
Date: 21 April, 2017 11:50

I think it's a question of being clinical. How many times over the past two years has Dai talked about leaving points out there? Not taking our chances? We take our foot off the gas when we're ahead which does make the game interesting and exciting to watch but when compared to the cutthroat nature of international rugby, it won't endear our players or coaches to the international setup. Become more clinical, get more players selected.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: RossM (IP Logged)
Date: 21 April, 2017 13:30

I don't mind 'clinical' but don't like 'cynical'.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: doog (IP Logged)
Date: 22 April, 2017 02:41

I agree with most of that, but we do have one player that nobody has mentioned who never takes a backwards step. Ashley. And if you want a more abrasive edge still, Coops doesn't back down either, and hits rucks pretty damn hard. I think the required aggression and pace is there, we just need to do it for more than just one quarter.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Beasties (IP Logged)
Date: 22 April, 2017 07:39

Defo agree about Symonds, I made a comment recently about him coming on as sub and upping the competitiveness of the team almost single handed. I do think we've missed Sam Jones since his injury. While he's not a nasty player per se he is defo a hard edged player, totally in your face. Jones liked him enough to pick him for the Eng squad. It's no coincidence that at the start of the season when we had a full roster to choose from our pack looked properly capable. At that time Symonds, Jones, Taylor and Thomson were featuring constantly.

I don't necessarily think we need to be nasty but we defo need to be in the oppo's face. We're going backwards in this respect at the moment which is where our malaise lies.

Re: Wasps not rated/too nice
Posted by: Raggs (IP Logged)
Date: 22 April, 2017 08:15

I'm quite happy with our edge at the moment, I'd like to see more intensity in defence or in the breakdown, but for me that's strategy, not nastiness. However, we've also only given away 8 penalties in our last 2 games, and considering some of those will likely have come from scrums, that's ridiculously good.

For me our defence strategy needs to change, but that's about it. We either need to not give up the gainline so easily, or we need to start trying for more turnovers. Obviously turnovers tends to require more specialist abilities in the pack at least (though certain balances of players could achieve it to some degree), defence could be more easily sorted by upping the linespeed (though it can lead to more clean breaks of course).

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