Team of individuals
Posted by: Twickwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 16:44

Yes we have injuries, but what is the way we want to play?
How does anyone think you can go through a premiership defence line by sending one up runners? Pathetic. Poor launch having to do donkey work all on his own.
Looked like today we wanted to keep it tight, but we have no game to keep it tight.
Team of individuals- Hughes, Robson, cips, Beale.
Then Daly off form, Haskell terrible, Simpson terrible, 3rd choice front row not good enough. PDJ- do me a favour, everyone knows he's not premiership.

Big, big problems

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Dgwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 16:51

This hints at there being great individuals...

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: kentwasp1 (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 16:53

Beale?

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Bracken&Macken (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 16:53

Quote:
Dgwasp
This hints at there being great individuals...


We have one great one, Launchbury has been exceptional. The shining light in what must be the laziest pack in Europe.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Vespulavulgaris (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 18:13

Ashley Johnson's first carry was stunning. For a brief moment I thought he was going to barrel through the entire Bath squad.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: SimonG19 (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 20:00

Quote:
Twickwasp
Y
Team of individuals- Hughes, Robson, cips, Beale.
Then Daly off form, Haskell terrible, Simpson terrible, 3rd choice front row not good enough. PDJ- do me a favour, everyone knows he's not premiership.

Big, big problems

Beale and Cipriani were rubbish today weren't they?

And that Dallaglio, what a useless individual. He was rubbish too!

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Twickwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 20:10

?? Of course they weren't.
My point is that these individuals performances have been the reason for the success in the past rather than the collective team.
Others now need to stand up.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: wombles222 (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 20:39

My biggest disappointment this term is Simmo! He IS a better player than his performances have shown this year, yet he so far has been bosh! I have no idea why! It makes no sense, he no longer snipes, he has slowed his delivery from the base, and kicks to far and to deep to often! and even looks as half a step slower than his previous rapidity! This is not what we are used to seeing, and I can only hope his dip in form will be as transient as hopefully the team as a whole will be!

I read a recent article where Simmo states that England is still on his radar. Well I ate to be harsh, but at the moment his form is not reflective of a top of the league player, let alone a international one! He can improve, he is good enough to! but like the rest of the team, they do need to take a long hard look at themselves!

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: hopey (IP Logged)
Date: 01 October, 2017 20:50

We are basically the same team as last year....but we have lost our cutting edge...every team has watched the previous matches this season and set themselves upto let us kick from 9 to there back 3 + back-row support, dont contest on the floor unless there is a golden oppurtunity this meaning our gain line is going backwards. When we run ball in the backs our attack players dont stand a chance, when our forwards have ball in hand they are expected to drive through 3 players and still present good attacking ball. I am wondering since we have players now with England, Wales and British lions over the summer they have all come back poorer for it on the team front.

I know we have a huge injury list and more on it today, and until that changes it could be a long season.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: wombles222 (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 10:07

I thonk tactically we are at sea at present. We started the season hoping our backs and attacking play would continue to hide the defensive deficiencies, however with our current attack insipid and uninspiring teams can play the phases knowing we will not or cannot compete at the breakdown and then use our lack of line speed to make the yards needed. Yesterday was case in point, our defensive line off set play was appallingly bad! Jog up and drift, by the time the tackle was made they were over and beyond the gain line with front foot ball as we were not even trying to slow them down.

Then look at our attacking ball, very little penetration, but no one on the field or in the coaches box decided to start trucking through the ruck, chipping over the rushing defence, playing to the corners. Gopps was so deep that the plays were telegraphed and we were constantly going backwards. It is the lack of ability to adjust the style to combat the oppos plans that are galling!

We do have the ability to turn this, the players and cosches are there. The problem is (IMHO) is that when tactically we are getting it so wrong, it takes more than a couple of games to get it right. Also with the attrition rate will we have anyone still there to try to correct it!

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: InbetweenWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 10:10

Quote:
wombles222
My biggest disappointment this term is Simmo! He IS a better player than his performances have shown this year, yet he so far has been bosh! I have no idea why! It makes no sense, he no longer snipes, he has slowed his delivery from the base, and kicks to far and to deep to often! and even looks as half a step slower than his previous rapidity! This is not what we are used to seeing, and I can only hope his dip in form will be as transient as hopefully the team as a whole will be!
I read a recent article where Simmo states that England is still on his radar. Well I ate to be harsh, but at the moment his form is not reflective of a top of the league player, let alone a international one! He can improve, he is good enough to! but like the rest of the team, they do need to take a long hard look at themselves!

Doh - I should have read this first. Have just posted (new thread) with very similar views!

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Bzzzzz (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 10:28

To single out individual players is just wrong, absolutely wrong and shameful in my world.... It is a team game and every player is equally responsible for what goes on during the game.

Simpson had no chance to get quick ball going although he tried on several occasions. The rest of the team were a yard behind at every stage yesterday giving the scrum half or acting scrum half no chance to get them on the front foot. The forwards were slow to the breakdown and slow to get organised. How many times did Simmo have to wait for the forwards, or any one, to be in the correct position to pass to. It was awful.

No one broke the line yesterday. No one got in behind and caused any chaos that we thrive on so well. We didn't chip kick or grubber kick through, we seemed bereft of ideas and Bath's defence was superlative so we must give them credit for that.....

But do not try to pin it on one player when there was 22 others equally responsible, plus the coaches who must have some input when it comes to strategy and to make sure we do play as a structured team not relying on individual skills and magic tries.

Bath played with a level of intensity, as did Exeter last week, that Wasps are lacking. There is no urgency, no tenacity. That is what we need to find and we will.

Having said that i thought there were some excellent performances out there from individuals on both teams. Well done to Bath they were the better team on the day and also played some decent honest rugby, which I enjoy the most, even if we do end up losing...

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: NellyWellyWaspy (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 10:43

Quote:
Bzzzzz
To single out individual players is just wrong, absolutely wrong and shameful in my world.... It is a team game and every player is equally responsible for what goes on during the game.
Simpson had no chance to get quick ball going although he tried on several occasions. The rest of the team were a yard behind at every stage yesterday giving the scrum half or acting scrum half no chance to get them on the front foot. The forwards were slow to the breakdown and slow to get organised. How many times did Simmo have to wait for the forwards, or any one, to be in the correct position to pass to. It was awful.

No one broke the line yesterday. No one got in behind and caused any chaos that we thrive on so well. We didn't chip kick or grubber kick through, we seemed bereft of ideas and Bath's defence was superlative so we must give them credit for that.....

But do not try to pin it on one player when there was 22 others equally responsible, plus the coaches who must have some input when it comes to strategy and to make sure we do play as a structured team not relying on individual skills and magic tries.

Bath played with a level of intensity, as did Exeter last week, that Wasps are lacking. There is no urgency, no tenacity. That is what we need to find and we will.

Having said that i thought there were some excellent performances out there from individuals on both teams. Well done to Bath they were the better team on the day and also played some decent honest rugby, which I enjoy the most, even if we do end up losing...

I agree Bzzzzz. Not any one or even group of players 'fault' at all. It is rugby, barring a draw, someone will win. Yesterday, for all of the game, that was going to be Bath. The group of players that we fielded didn't work as a cohesive unit, and was lacking in tactical direction. If those Wasps had played like a team, they could have won. They had the skill and ability. They had the will to win.

Onwards and upwards. Let's hope that things improve, on and off the pitch.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: JSwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 11:18

Quote:
hopey
We are basically the same team as last year....but we have lost our cutting edge...every team has watched the previous matches this season and set themselves upto let us kick from 9 to there back 3 + back-row support, dont contest on the floor unless there is a golden oppurtunity this meaning our gain line is going backwards. When we run ball in the backs our attack players dont stand a chance, when our forwards have ball in hand they are expected to drive through 3 players and still present good attacking ball. I am wondering since we have players now with England, Wales and British lions over the summer they have all come back poorer for it on the team front.
I know we have a huge injury list and more on it today, and until that changes it could be a long season.

Disagree that we are basically the same team as last year - particularly right now. A back line of robson, cips, Gopperth, Daly, Le Roux, Wade, Beale is far different (and better) than our side yesterday. I appreciate that a large reason for this difference is injuries, but I think expectations have to be adjusted accordingly.

Last year's backline - comfortably best in the league. Back line right now - mid table standard?

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: InbetweenWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 11:50

Quote:
Bzzzzz
To single out individual players is just wrong, absolutely wrong and shameful in my world.... It is a team game and every player is equally responsible for what goes on during the game

I don't think anyone is singling out players for a bad performance in a single game, or as the reason why we've lost a few - I'm certainly not.

My comments about Simmo are more general in the last couple of seasons he's shifted his game from being quick to the base and a little more hare 'em scare 'em to being slower, ponderous and predictable with a much, much higher proportion of (largely poorly executed) kicking.

Sometimes the kick is good and the chase is crap, sometimes the kick is crap.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Just (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 13:12

The law changes have, i think, affected the game detrimentally from our point of view, defending teams put very few players into the ruck and as soon as the ruck is lost, jump back to their feet and pad out the defensive line, even with quick ball there are not so many edges being created for the quick flair players to run around, without our more dynamic backrowers on the pitch we are not making inroads through the middle so we are not getting behind them that way, if anything the new laws favour a big pack and centres and a couple of fast boys to take advantage when the opposition are all tied in trying to stop the lumbering juggernaut trundling up the middle.
Also, we are missing Cips, Gopperth is a much more direct player, superb, but you pretty much know what he is going to do,he doesn't have the same sort of guile as Cipriani and it is that guile that tends unlock those chances for the sparkling backline that we have.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: wombles222 (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 13:31

Quote:
InbetweenWasp
Quote:
Bzzzzz
To single out individual players is just wrong, absolutely wrong and shameful in my world.... It is a team game and every player is equally responsible for what goes on during the game

I don't think anyone is singling out players for a bad performance in a single game, or as the reason why we've lost a few - I'm certainly not.

My comments about Simmo are more general in the last couple of seasons he's shifted his game from being quick to the base and a little more hare 'em scare 'em to being slower, ponderous and predictable with a much, much higher proportion of (largely poorly executed) kicking.

Sometimes the kick is good and the chase is crap, sometimes the kick is crap.

I agree with InbetweenWasp. Highlighting a player is not "singling out". It is just commenting on what -in our humble opinion- we think. My comments were never singling out for blame, just commenting on what I believe is a player that is better than his current form shows, and certainly not blaming him for the result at any point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2017 13:33 by wombles222.

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: Pingu the Brave (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 14:04

It's all about cohesion and playing time together. If you look at the first 5 games we have had this line up at 9, 10, 12, 13

Sale : Robson, Cipriani, Gopperth, Lovobalavu
Worcester : Robson, Cipriani, Gopperth, Lovobalavu
Quins : Simpson, Cipriani, Lovobalavu, Daly
Exeter: Simpson, Gopperth, De Jongh, Daly
Bath: Simpson, Gopperth, Macken, Daly

Last season the 9, 10, 12 were hardly changed which created significant cohesion and consistency. The players knew what each other did. Losing Gopperth against Quins meant that we missed the 2nd ball player, something that is fundamental to how we play. Then you bring an untried and tested 10,12,13 combination which then reduces options in the back line and makes it very difficult to use the outside players as the opposition know what is going to happen once the ball leaves 10.

Player cohesion is so important. Without that cohesion you just have a bunch of very good players, individuals. The reason why Exeter and Saracens are so good isn't just that they have good players it's that they have had time together to build the relationships and understanding over a number of seasons. The squad turnover as well as the injuries we have had mean that we are using novice combinations in key parts of the team.

However, this is going to play into our hands later in the season as we will have injured players back and also will have combinations that have played together more often than would normally have happened.



PtB
http://home.pacific.net.hk/~shung/favorites/pingu.gif

Re: Team of individuals
Posted by: westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
Date: 02 October, 2017 17:43

Rule number one of being a rugby fan is that our scrum half is always terrible, theirs always magic. Except when ours is a genius, and should be playing for England/The lions/The world all time XV. The other 14 players get away with it on the terraces, but the SH- always the first to be blamed for defences not set or slow ball. I am convinced this is why scrum halves share a spikey on-field temperament, shall we say.
Beings serious, its true that the service seems slow, and the snipes have stopped. Why....well that is harder to answer.

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