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Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Hangover (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 09:31

Once again it is all about intensity with Sarries - yes they dropped off a bit in the last 20 mins but they were so far in front it didn't matter. Every player, forward or back knows exactly what to do, but more importantly does it with pace and aggression. A brilliantly drilled unit. Gloucs tried something with 36 and Cips but it just didn't work. Ackerman and Ludlow did not look good going off, big issue for them. Flatman says you have to keep Sarries honest by constantly hitting them around the fringes with pick and goes - he maybe right it is certainly something Quins used to do successfully to us all the time.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: StevieWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 09:54

Flatman is probably right. If you have big enough units to hit around the fringes and pick up half a yard, then you'll start to cause saracen's problems. They'll start committing more to the breakdown areas which should narrow their defence.

However, in reality, lots of teams try that, but Saracen's are usually the more powerful and therefore will often push runners back around the fringes, which then puts you on the back foot and in more trouble.


I doubt that there's a simple tactic to defeat Saracens. If there was, lots of teams would be doing it and Sarries would lose more games.
I think it's more about keeping them guessing. Hit the fringes, but make it a surprise for a few phases, not a constant barrage. If they learn where to stack their defence, they'll beat you... and they learn quickly.
Ultimately, there just a damn good team who are incredibly difficult to beat.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: 1978Wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 10:04

This is a compliment, but I think Sarries play the rules and the refs to the limit in the same way that Tigers did in the Johnson/Back days.

They also have that same level of efficiency and pressure that suffocates most teams on most days.

It gets results, but is not something that gets the pulse racing. Though I bet a lot of Tigers fans would swap some of their back line for a bit more efficiency and pressure.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: sarricen (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 11:32

Sarries players choose their own try scoring music so this was purely down to Lozowski although I suppose you could argue the club could have asked him to choose a different song

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: StevieWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 11:38

Quote:
1978Wasp
This is a compliment, but I think Sarries play the rules and the refs to the limit in the same way that Tigers did in the Johnson/Back days.
They also have that same level of efficiency and pressure that suffocates most teams on most days.

It gets results, but is not something that gets the pulse racing. Though I bet a lot of Tigers fans would swap some of their back line for a bit more efficiency and pressure.

Is that any different to us during the Dallaglio years?
Lol pushed every ref and most laws to the limits, overstepping occasionally, but often knowing where to draw the line.

Our Sean Edwards inspired rush defence suffocated a lot of teams for many years.


As Wasps fans, we looked upon that era with pride. Our defence was strong, and a weapon, we turned over a lot of ball and then punished teams quickly. When we were under pressure, our leader was able to slow the game down and try to gain an advantage from 50/50s with his onpitch relationship with the refs.


However, I'm sure other teams looked upon it differently.
They probably saw a captain who was constantly in the refs ear, constantly offside or on the wrong side of the laws.
Our suffocating defence was probably seen as a well drilled weapon, but something that stopped other teams from being able to play.


are Saracens so different from how we were... and how we would love to be again?

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Westy68 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 11:53

Sarries are an extremely well coached team , with quality players who all buy into the club ethos.

Exeter are the closest team to them but on sarries day it is still some distance away.

I have seen some good signs with us but would like a few more players back from injury to have a better idea of how far we are behind sarries.

Unfortunately it could be a very one sided 3-5 seasons

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Phillywasp (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 12:03

Given that Eddie isnít going to pick the exciting, running back line we know England could go with,
I would genuinely be tempted to pick the sarries back line + 1 other winger

9 Wiggy
10 Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Loz
14 Strettle
15 Goode

You could even make Ashton the other winger as I bet he hasnít forgotten or could re learn the systems pretty quickly.

Itís not the Robson/Cipriani/Farrell axis that I would love to see...but the sarries backline is no longer the uninspiring turgidity that it used to be. And if they can bring the defensive energy, along with a decent forward pack, I bet we would win more than we have done in the last year.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 12:38

The problem is you have to be on your game against them and Glaws decide to roll out their worst forward game so far.
Not so much blown away in the first 15 mins but under big pressure and making mistakes
Ironically the wasps backline may have kept the game closer but I don't see the Glaws back as in the same class, they need so much to go right there.

So, glaws had a battle up front which they were struggling with and the backs were adrift.

Anyone will get a pasting from that position and I think they did well to keep it under 40 points.

The only teams that will benefit will be teams that get a lbp away to Saracens.
The chasers for 3 and 4 place will look to take those points back at home and I think that is possible.

Home advantage and their home game aura or demeanour are huge tasks atm for the top two.
The chasers have improvements to bed in.
Glaws have their SA cavalry in people like Moserts, who if he is still the player he was he'll make a big difference
And Wasps just need a few more games to bed down new recruits.

You just have to say both Chiefs and Saracens are very good with their foot on the jugular atm.

Everyone else are degrees of fallible at this stage.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 12:49

Quote:
Westy68
Sarries showing no class of sportsmanship, Spanking Gloucester but feel itís appropriate to play Ďalways look on the bright side of lifeí

Lack of class might be for example playing "What's new pussycat" when your opposition take to the field?

As for "lack of class" regarding the song and Saracens, song was one of those chosen by individual players at the start of the season as their try "celebration" music no more or less. I'd agree that in the context of the game not knowing that it might seem off but feel that was unfortunate rather than any sign of disrespect or lack of class.

I think Cipriani pretty much made Jones point for him in that game but would also agree both that any Glaws 10 would have had a tough time and any 10 would have looked pretty good behind that Saracens pack.
Handling was off from Saracens through the match with Farrell throwing a couple of very poor passes to no one. He did also however put in a couple of beautiful ones, some great kicks for position and the up and under on the posts. He should have created a try for Maitland if he'd been bolder and gone to catch the ball rather than wait for it to bounce and put in a similar good kick for Strettle to chase which Strettle gave up on to Farrells obvious annoyance.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 12:59

The trouble is that those Saracen forwards haven't been anywhere near that form for England this last season.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: mike909 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 13:53

Quote:
SarrieSaint

Lack of class might be for example playing "What's new pussycat" when your opposition take to the field?


Thank you for my best laugh of the day!

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 13:58

Quote:
John Tee
The trouble is that those Saracen forwards haven't been anywhere near that form for England this last season.

That is true, but most of those players were flogged last year and having about 5/6 weeks off has done a lot of them some good. You add in injuries to Billy for most of last year and most of them look much much better and fresher, particularly Itoje and also Kruis who finally is fit and has not been rushed back too early from injury as he has done for the last 2 seasons.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 13:59

Quote:
Phillywasp
Given that Eddie isnít going to pick the exciting, running back line we know England could go with,
I would genuinely be tempted to pick the sarries back line + 1 other winger

9 Wiggy
10 Farrell
12 Barritt
13 Loz
14 Strettle
15 Goode

You could even make Ashton the other winger as I bet he hasnít forgotten or could re learn the systems pretty quickly.

Itís not the Robson/Cipriani/Farrell axis that I would love to see...but the sarries backline is no longer the uninspiring turgidity that it used to be. And if they can bring the defensive energy, along with a decent forward pack, I bet we would win more than we have done in the last year.


As much as I love those players, the only one I want playing for England is Faz, maybe Loz on the bench, all the other players are past it at international level

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:10

Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Quote:
John Tee
The trouble is that those Saracen forwards haven't been anywhere near that form for England this last season.

That is true, but most of those players were flogged last year and having about 5/6 weeks off has done a lot of them some good. You add in injuries to Billy for most of last year and most of them look much much better and fresher, particularly Itoje and also Kruis who finally is fit and has not been rushed back too early from injury as he has done for the last 2 seasons.

I think the comment of being flogged is fair. Is it the whole story?
England were all downhill from last Nov. Is it just fitness or something else.
My suspicion is that there is something toxic about the squads. Will the players play..?
If so, you'd think we'd show a marked (huge) improvement but we haven't seen that across 3 series of games.
If the flogged theory is true, Jones bacon will be saved in the autumn, if not, he has to go?

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:23

Unless Jones walks I just don't see the RFU getting rid before the RWC whatever the results are. Whilst I don't rate Jones there's little comfort to be had in Mitchell as the likely caretaker candidate if Jones walks. My hope is the players can get a result despite Jones it certainly won't be because of him.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:32

Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
Barnetsarrie12
Quote:
John Tee
The trouble is that those Saracen forwards haven't been anywhere near that form for England this last season.

That is true, but most of those players were flogged last year and having about 5/6 weeks off has done a lot of them some good. You add in injuries to Billy for most of last year and most of them look much much better and fresher, particularly Itoje and also Kruis who finally is fit and has not been rushed back too early from injury as he has done for the last 2 seasons.

I think the comment of being flogged is fair. Is it the whole story?
England were all downhill from last Nov. Is it just fitness or something else.
My suspicion is that there is something toxic about the squads. Will the players play..?
If so, you'd think we'd show a marked (huge) improvement but we haven't seen that across 3 series of games.
If the flogged theory is true, Jones bacon will be saved in the autumn, if not, he has to go?


I agree, England had so many forwards playing for the lions and a lot of them played all 3 tests, 4 of the Front 5 that started in SA also played 3 tests in NZ (Sinckler, Itoje, Mako, George and Lawes played 2 tests and Kruis one test)

For contrast, Ireland only had one forward that played in the six nations play any test for the lions and that was POM who only played the first test.

This autumn and the six nations will be the real test as there is no lions fatigue and all of the forwards who will play have had very good long rest periods. If the England forward pack is poor this autumn, then there is a serious problem.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:36

Sorry they had Furlong also play for them, but he was rested for most of the early part of the pro 14 and Mcgreath also played from the bench and he did not start for Ireland as Healy was ahead of him in the pecking order.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Hangover (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:38

Sorry, no Wiggy, Barritt or Strettle but the others would do just fine. Goode is a strange one he doesn't seem as dynamic as Watson or even Brown but he is great under the high ball and almost never gets stopped by the first tackler.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:44

Goode is ridiculously intelligent on the rugby field and he makes such great decisions and has great hands. He is to me a poor man's Ben Smith, super intelligent without being the physical specimens of a lot of other players.

I do think the Goode boat has sailed with England and he has no chance with Jones and at 30 years old, I doubt he will ever play for England again.

Re: Same old sarries
Posted by: Westy68 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 September, 2018 14:46

Is it really fatigue? I remember itoje making a joke about it.

In my opinion McCall commands respect and gets it from the players. EJ doesnít, I donít think the players have much trust in him

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