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England v NZ
Posted by: Gaz (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 12:11

England starting XV

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Teo (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).

Finishers

16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Gaz (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 12:14

Shame for Mercer, Lawes has plenty of credit left in the bank in EJs England team, would have thought Ewels would have been dropped

This game feels a long time coming, shame it wasn't two years ago but let's see if we can build on last week.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Hangover (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 13:29

Gaz - totally agree, the area we are likely to be struggling in is No8 not Lock, so why did he not give Mercer another go this weekend. I thought he was excellent when he came on last week.We all know what Lawes can do and lets be frank whenever he has played in the back row it has not been brilliant. Ewels covers Lock and gets some international experience. Very strange IMO unless Mercer has a knock but its not mentioned. Tne rest of it sort of makes sense. Hope ED opens his eyes this week, as you are going to get few chances against the ABs.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 15:59

Manu out last week with a minor injury...he could have played...but nowhere in the 23 this week.

Teo was good against sbw for the Lions so no problem there so much, even with so little game time but for the omission of Manu which presumably is a bigger injury than previously mentioned....??

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: AKWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 16:44

Quote:
John Tee
Manu out last week with a minor injury...he could have played...but nowhere in the 23 this week.
Teo was good against sbw for the Lions so no problem there so much, even with so little game time but for the omission of Manu which presumably is a bigger injury than previously mentioned....??

Think Eddie said something about him being 99.9% fit and not 100% so he isnt happy about playing him.

Ridiculous that its taken him 3 years to realise that players only get fit if you give them time to recover but its a good sign nevertheless

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 18:06

Quote:
Gaz
England starting XV
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Teo (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).

Finishers

16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).

No wonder Wade left to the NFL. Ashton being fast tracked into the England team with little or no rugby, no form, defensively suspect and a bit of a unreliable prat to boot. Depressing. Not that Ashton is not without his virtues but his selection is not meritocratic in my view. Other wingers in the Premiership should be p*ssed off too.

Without the Vunipola brothers England look very short on punch & gainline explosiveness. They really are both exceptional players. Mako is one of the best rugby players I have ever seen. Certainly the best ball playing prop I can think of.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Penn Wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 23:12

I would settle for us competing for 80 minutes...
Though if we are close for 60 would be a result (before the abs run away with it)

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
Date: 08 November, 2018 23:23

I don't think I know what Eddie's gameplan is based on the last year, beyond picking lots of 6.5 s and 5.5s to generate maximum confusion and confound the pundits off field l, but I am wondering how muggable NZ are on it.

Historically England's some of England's best performances against them have come from nowhere, sometimes when we have been in disarray, with the exception of Sir Clive's team towards the 2003 wc. A bit of AB overconfidence would not go amiss.

This week will tell us a lot about where England are, a single win will buy Eddie much goodwill and generate momentum. A heavy defeat will ramp up the pressure for the fourth weekend immensely.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 00:05

Quote:
westwaleswasp
I don't think I know what Eddie's gameplan is based on the last year, beyond picking lots of 6.5 s and 5.5s to generate maximum confusion and confound the pundits off field l, but I am wondering how muggable NZ are on it.
Historically England's some of England's best performances against them have come from nowhere, sometimes when we have been in disarray, with the exception of Sir Clive's team towards the 2003 wc. A bit of AB overconfidence would not go amiss.

This week will tell us a lot about where England are, a single win will buy Eddie much goodwill and generate momentum. A heavy defeat will ramp up the pressure for the fourth weekend immensely.

Par would be making a game of it and holding New Zealand for 80 minutes and losing by less than 10 points. If England don't played well they could be thrashed. The New Zealand is looking very strong and South Africa have given the shock and work out that they need recently. The backline looks very strong to me. Aaron Smith, Barrett, Goodhue, Ben Smith and McKenzie are all very solid and very good. Goodhue at 13 is a real find and holds the 3/4s together like Conrad Smith used to. McKenzie and Ben Smith can both be very special.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 00:18

Also the England back three looks very defensively vulnerable to me. Daly isn't great under the high ball, May isn't an all around footballer and prone to go walkabout in attack and defence and Ashton is Ashton. Potentially a defensive and decision making disaster zone waiting to happen.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 06:47

Agree on the back three, but May I think offers a unique threat with ball in hand, genuine class. Never going to be an all round footballer as you describe, but then he is a winger and is good at the primary job. Defensively it could be awkward.

Daly I just think is not a FB, it does not play to his strengths, I wonder if him and Ashton could have swapped. I am sure he is capable of a good game, but over time I think we lose something there.

NZ look great, always do, but that often is when they are muggable. I feel their focus will be on Dublin where they will be keen to trip up the number two team.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Petros (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 08:57

Trouble is Ashton isn't a FB either

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Geoff P (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 09:28

I don't see Jonny May as any kind of a weakness. There's nothing wrong with his defence these days and as a strike runner he is now up there with the very best in the world. However, NZ won't have forgotten what he did to their top-class backline last time they came to Twickenham (one of my all-time favourite England tries), so I imagine they'll have spent a bit of time planning to counter him.

Elliot is also a fabulous strike runner, but appears like a rabbit in the headlights every time a high ball comes his way, which on an international pitch is unacceptable in a fullback. That was the one rock solid aspect to Brown's game - you'd bet your house on him catching them, regardless of however many 20 stoners were coming at him at the same time.

I really don't know what to expect from Ashton. The all-round reasonably-solid player, and great attacker, of his early England years, or the defensive turnstile and liability of more recent vintage. I have a gut feeling that he might in fact have a good game, but equally I also won't be too surprised if it goes horribly wrong.

Am really pleased for Ben Moon - that's the kind of story that is almost uniquely rugby - a bloke who starts playing for fun in his village team, moves to a bigger local side which ultimately gets promoted to the Premiership, but all the while he stays in the team, getting better as the standard of his opponents improves. And after years of toiling away at the front-row coalface, long after he thought any chance of him playing international rugby had passed him by, he ends up running out wearing the red rose to face the all blacks at Twickenham..

Love it.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 09:39

May is far from a problem on his own but the problem with the back 3 is a question of balance. No specialist full back and Ashton. Compare that to having Brown at full back and Daly on the wing. I just don't like Daly at full back. It could be a defensive nightmare.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: mike909 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 12:08

I'd expect NZ to have done their homework and will be looking to place some early high balls towards Daly and/or Ashton with an effective chase, just to see. And given Te'O and Slade and Slade and Ashton have little game time together, I'd expect some pressure applied to these channels.

I do think the back three is a lot weaker than it could be. If Eddie is persisting with Daly at FB, it would seem that Watson isn't going to be FB going forwards. Daly looked a good winger in the all round style, but unless he plays FB for Wasps - which he won't muxh or at all, he'll be learning on the job

I worry that rather like Nathan, he'll come back in worse shape, mentally or physically than when he went to England.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Trev's Big Tackle (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 12:17

I'm predicting this will be the last time we see Henry Slade in an England shirt. He's a decent enough player but I think the NZ midfield will pull him this way and that, he'll be missing tackles left and right and he'll get run straight over once or twice. He won't be the only one missing tackles but I think he'll get the Matt Tait scapegoat treatment.

I'm hoping I'll be proved wrong.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Nigel Med (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 12:53

Picking a back three for their attacking potential when you're playing the All Blacks is utter folly. It's not like we got the ball out wide last weekend so how much front foot ball are the wingers and FB going to see? whilst you certainly shouldn't focus completely on defence it seems ridiculous not to expect to have to defend against the current world champions. Daly was dreadful under the high ball last week and Ashton has always been. If memory serves, one of Ashton's last games in an England shirt was in the last series against the AB's. I think they scored three tries on his wing without him laying a finger on anyone. they may even have butchered a fourth through a forward pass. May is arguably the best defender out of the three of them but I have no doubt that the Kiwi's will already have a plan for how to attack, easy enough to avoid May.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: matelot22 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 14:23

Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
I'm predicting this will be the last time we see Henry Slade in an England shirt. He's a decent enough player but I think the NZ midfield will pull him this way and that, he'll be missing tackles left and right and he'll get run straight over once or twice. He won't be the only one missing tackles but I think he'll get the Matt Tait scapegoat treatment.
I'm hoping I'll be proved wrong.

I'm not sure that it matters how badly he plays as long as EJ is in charge. We've seen lots of poor games from lots of players, but if Eddie likes you, you're in. Incidentally, I don't think he'll be the worse among the backs from the autumn series.

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 14:32

Quote:
mike909
I'd expect NZ to have done their homework and will be looking to place some early high balls towards Daly and/or Ashton with an effective chase, just to see. And given Te'O and Slade and Slade and Ashton have little game time together, I'd expect some pressure applied to these channels.
I do think the back three is a lot weaker than it could be. If Eddie is persisting with Daly at FB, it would seem that Watson isn't going to be FB going forwards. Daly looked a good winger in the all round style, but unless he plays FB for Wasps - which he won't muxh or at all, he'll be learning on the job

I worry that rather like Nathan, he'll come back in worse shape, mentally or physically than when he went to England.

Daly has proven himself to be a very good creative footballing winger. World class even with England and the Lions. But he isn't a full back. Wasps tested the Daly as a full back idea to destruction 5 or 6 years ago and it clearly didn't work. Does Eddie Jones even talk to Dai Young as why Wasps don't play Daly at full back!

Re: England v NZ
Posted by: Beckenham Bandit (IP Logged)
Date: 09 November, 2018 14:53

Quote:
Trev's Big Tackle
I'm predicting this will be the last time we see Henry Slade in an England shirt. He's a decent enough player but I think the NZ midfield will pull him this way and that, he'll be missing tackles left and right and he'll get run straight over once or twice. He won't be the only one missing tackles but I think he'll get the Matt Tait scapegoat treatment.
I'm hoping I'll be proved wrong.

Slade doesn't really offer anything special. He doesn't have searing break, he isn't a defensive specialist and he doesn't have explosive power. Solid player but nothing special.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 01:03 by Beckenham Bandit.

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