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Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: DrV'sHairyCraic (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 10:53

Quote:
LI Bohemian
Maybe there is no need to run extra trains on a Sunday at the moment, but if there's a demand for transport to the area,then the rails are still there even if the parking spaces are not


(Sm161) Surely

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Bazzo (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 11:11

Quote:
Foggy-Balla
Quote:
DrV'sHairyCraic
I guess it depends where your starting from Bazzo. Unfortunately Brentford isn't on a main line so anyone travelling any distance will require 1 or more changes + the delays involved and the increased risk of a donkey replacement service.
And this wonderful train service is only hourly on a Sunday.

Yes, but the 10k will be able to walk from home (Sm14)

You joke about it, but it is a fact that there are way more people living in the greater London area within the tube network in particular than there around the outskirts of Reading? I do not see why people try to turn that into a joke? I was never talking about people walking to the game, (even if some in Chiswick/Kew/Brentford could) I was saying that there is a tube station (Gunnersbury) a 5 min walk away and a train station (Kew Bridge) a 1 min walk away with trains from Waterloo. I have no idea how regularly they run, but anyone within the tube and train network (Millions?) could get there in under an hour I would say and that has to open up a whole new support base. I can see the logic.

Of course it will be more difficult for lots of current people who go to games in Reading (me included) to go to Brentford, but the point that I was making was that a stadium within the tube network opens up a whole new option for way more people to come to the games if we are in Brentford. It just does. I might not like it, but it does.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: DrV'sHairyCraic (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 11:29

They didn't go to Ealing, Richmond or London Scottish to watch us last season.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Foggy-Balla (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 11:37

We've been around this buoy many times, Bazzo, in fact I'm quite dizzy & bored with the debate. However there is a section of us who are somewhat skeptical of how big the actual Rugby market to be tapped is in an area where there are already Scottish, Richmond, Quins, Ealing, Irish Amateur, Welsh Amateur & a bit further away Sarries.

I will do anything I can to make matches should/when the move happens. However I've just checked and our route to get there would be walk-bus-train-underground-train or drive-park-train-underground-train.

I've just checked duration using this weekend as an example and on a Saturday it would take us in excess of two hours, on Sunday in excess of three, and on Sundays would mean no longer taking part in grassroots Rugby. This is without any engineering works, of course.
Cost for our party would be £35-50 return.

Set that against current arrangement of driving for 30-40 minutes & paying £80-90 a season to park & I think you can see why we might not continue coming. I know there are people who have longer journeys. I accept that we might be easily replaced by the many residents covered by the LT network.

However the Board needs to be 100% sure that the market is there. Of course the other way to get acceptable numbers at the MadStad is to start winning again...



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Foggy-Balla (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 11:37

Quote:
DrV'sHairyCraic
They didn't go to Ealing, Richmond or London Scottish to watch us last season.

Sorry, forgot to mention that bit!



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Bazzo (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 11:53

Quote:
DrV'sHairyCraic
They didn't go to Ealing, Richmond or London Scottish to watch us last season.

We were playing Ealing, Richmond, London Scottish...... not Saracens, Wasps, Quins etc. I would venture that there would be more there to watch those teams in the Premiership than the ones you mentioned in the Championship !

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: paddym (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 12:14

Quote:
Finno
Quote:
HeavyCream
Moving from one football town to another for one football ground from another. We need to buy up a well worn rugby field somewhere in the Thames valley and start putting up some seating around it. It is the ONLY way we will ever feel like a proper club. We need to get hold of these guys, and do what they're doing....... [www.shropshirestar.com]
Just need some money

I agree! I've always thought the perfect long term solution is Hazelwood. If you put planning to one side for a moment it's perfect!

We own the land.
It's already home.
There's enough space for a stadium and parking, and keep the 'world class training facilities'
If parking is a problem, Kempton Park is just up the road for Park and Ride.
We might need to punch a new access road hole through to the site.
It's then just a case of slowly building forward with temporary stands, like Exeter,Bath, Worcester, Quins etc use. We even have the advantage of not having to build changing rooms etc to begin with.

So, all we need is Planing Permission! With planning, it's amazing what's possible if you have stomach to dig in and plug away! I have intimate experience of what's possible here in Horsham with the local football club. When the threatened loss of a key community facility was a possibility if the football club didn't get a new home, it was amazing how councilors attitudes changed despite locals objection. Eventually, the football club won. In LI's case you argue that the current community use of Hazelwood would be lost, as LI can only become sustainable and stay in business, and keep the community facility is if the professional arm moves in. It might take a few years of chipping away, but I'm sure we'd get there in the end!

Easy 'innit!!

Apart from the fact that Kempton Park
already has an application in for
building of 3000 houses on it! Also trying
to get Spelthorne Council to change all
tha planning laws that exist on th
Hazelwood including a maximum of 20
matches a season on the main pitch.
If a pro game was scheduled for a Sunday
what would happen to the 400 or so
mini/ youth players that current
use Hazelwood for most of the day?

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Jon_r43 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 12:38

Hazlelwood is a complete non starter. Chelsea wanted it for a training ground and that didnít go through, the Nimbism is way to strong....... there was outrage at the 15 seater temporary stand and there are still residents outside a games saying itís a training ground you shouldnít be playing matches......

The Jockey Club are looking at selling of Kempton for development so that wonít be parking and will result in a lot of development traffic south of the M3 so canít see anything more being allowed there.....

My main worry with Brentford is that we were told it would provide a revenue stream during the week through the conference facilities that the Brentford Chairman has shelved as to risky so it may no longer provide as good an option as when first floated.

There is an unused sports arena in the Feltham area which is a significant white elephant and has been for years, called ďFeltham ArenasĒ probably not possible but Itís a 5 minutes walk From Feltham Station and is owned by Hounslow council, and close to Hazlewood

Some info on the site [investhounslow.com]

Looks like itís already been a graveyard for a couple of development projects



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2017 12:41 by Jon_r43.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 13:04

Quote:
Jon_r43
Hazlelwood is a complete non starter. Chelsea wanted it for a training ground and that didnít go through, the Nimbism is way to strong....... there was outrage at the 15 seater temporary stand and there are still residents outside a games saying itís a training ground you shouldnít be playing matches......
The Jockey Club are looking at selling of Kempton for development so that wonít be parking and will result in a lot of development traffic south of the M3 so canít see anything more being allowed there.....

My main worry with Brentford is that we were told it would provide a revenue stream during the week through the conference facilities that the Brentford Chairman has shelved as to risky so it may no longer provide as good an option as when first floated.

There is an unused sports arena in the Feltham area which is a significant white elephant and has been for years, called ďFeltham ArenasĒ probably not possible but Itís a 5 minutes walk From Feltham Station and is owned by Hounslow council, and close to Hazlewood

Some info on the site [investhounslow.com]

Looks like itís already been a graveyard for a couple of development projects

Jon, Nimbyism never stopped anything in the long term if you really have the stomach for a fight and prepared to play the long game. Chelsea didn't need to fight...they just had the money to go elsewhere !

If a Planning Application actually goes to appeal to the Sec of State, then it's heard purely on planning grounds and it doesn't matter what the locals think. Locals can only influence things (with Councillors etc) when it stays local and if goes to appeal it's heard remotely, and as long the application is sound from a planning perspective, it will be passed !

You only have to look at the current Hazelwood set up, to see that if you chip away and answer concerns you can usually get what you want planning wise (albit it with some restrictions, which you can work on later). Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on which side you're on, that's the way the planning business works.

If you're really serious and be prepared for setbacks and play the long game, you'll eventually get what you want.....and I'm sure that Hazelwood is the ultimate long game, nothing else makes long term commercial sense unless the man with the big bag of sugar turns up !

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Florida (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 14:30

Speaking as someone living SW at the moment I and a few of my nearest and dearest happily made the trips to Richmond, London Scottish and Ealing. We don't however head to the Mad Stad often because it's an absolute pig. Brentwood would be dead easy for us to get to. We're about to move to SE, Brentwood would still be easy for us, Reading would still be a pig.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Aa545 (IP Logged)
Date: 05 October, 2017 20:36

Cannot see Brentford making any difference to the size of the crowd, infact the only game we would sell out is the St. Patrickís day game which attracted over 20,000 to the Madstad one year meaning the club would actually loose money as Brentford will only be 17,500 take into account the supporters who travel up from Guildford , Petersfield, Havant and Portsmouth to Reading who wouldnít go to Brentford than I cannot see any benefit to the club , especially as they wonít be able to make mo eyxsuring the week from conferences etc.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Alphacat (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 01:20

Even if the crowd was the same, the atmosphere would be (imo) better

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Aa545 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 03:57

Quote:
Alphacat
Even if the crowd was the same, the atmosphere would be (imo) better
I donít know why all of the MadStad is open in the premiership.
Would be much better to have half of it closed like last season, creating a better atmosphere.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Bazzo (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 08:37

Quote:
Finno
Quote:
Jon_r43
Hazlelwood is a complete non starter. Chelsea wanted it for a training ground and that didnít go through, the Nimbism is way to strong....... there was outrage at the 15 seater temporary stand and there are still residents outside a games saying itís a training ground you shouldnít be playing matches......
The Jockey Club are looking at selling of Kempton for development so that wonít be parking and will result in a lot of development traffic south of the M3 so canít see anything more being allowed there.....

My main worry with Brentford is that we were told it would provide a revenue stream during the week through the conference facilities that the Brentford Chairman has shelved as to risky so it may no longer provide as good an option as when first floated.

There is an unused sports arena in the Feltham area which is a significant white elephant and has been for years, called ďFeltham ArenasĒ probably not possible but Itís a 5 minutes walk From Feltham Station and is owned by Hounslow council, and close to Hazlewood

Some info on the site [investhounslow.com]

Looks like itís already been a graveyard for a couple of development projects

Jon, Nimbyism never stopped anything in the long term if you really have the stomach for a fight and prepared to play the long game. Chelsea didn't need to fight...they just had the money to go elsewhere !

If a Planning Application actually goes to appeal to the Sec of State, then it's heard purely on planning grounds and it doesn't matter what the locals think. Locals can only influence things (with Councillors etc) when it stays local and if goes to appeal it's heard remotely, and as long the application is sound from a planning perspective, it will be passed !

You only have to look at the current Hazelwood set up, to see that if you chip away and answer concerns you can usually get what you want planning wise (albit it with some restrictions, which you can work on later). Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on which side you're on, that's the way the planning business works.

If you're really serious and be prepared for setbacks and play the long game, you'll eventually get what you want.....and I'm sure that Hazelwood is the ultimate long game, nothing else makes long term commercial sense unless the man with the big bag of sugar turns up !

How long approx do you think the "long game" that you suggest would take Finno? 5-10 years maybe? That would be just for planning if we did manage to chip away at residents etc, then you have to get the finance and actually build something like a premiership stadium? Could take another few years. Bear in mind that we are losing lots every season (2m?) and that is even without being competitive enough to challenge the top of the league in financial terms. We could have spent and lost 30 odd million by the time your plan comes off. Someone has to fund that every year. Brentford is starting construction soon and will be built within three years. If we got an average 8-10k crowd without any non match day revenue it would still be a better deal than Reading. I enjoy discussing this as it is crucial in the long term survival of the club, but we will never get 10k crowds in reading. Paddy's day games are one offs, and to those who say winning games will bring people in, it didn't last year in the championship and the club has been at Mad Stad long enough to try everything. Not sure how long we've been there, 15 odd years? I live in the area and try to get people to come along and they have no interest. The passionate people on this board who go to games know this too. Brentford is the best option by far for me.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Heaf (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 09:02

I'm not questioning the benefits or otherwise of the move but not sure how you can state we will never get 10K crowds in Reading when we used to get those sorts of levels regularly when I first started supporting LI ...

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: fatlad76 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 09:36

Spot on Heaf!
2/3rd full east
2/3rd full west
and an open south remember it well.

The answer is simple good winning rugby!

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Finno (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 09:45

Quote:
Bazzo
Quote:
Finno
Quote:
Jon_r43
Hazlelwood is a complete non starter. Chelsea wanted it for a training ground and that didnít go through, the Nimbism is way to strong....... there was outrage at the 15 seater temporary stand and there are still residents outside a games saying itís a training ground you shouldnít be playing matches......
The Jockey Club are looking at selling of Kempton for development so that wonít be parking and will result in a lot of development traffic south of the M3 so canít see anything more being allowed there.....

My main worry with Brentford is that we were told it would provide a revenue stream during the week through the conference facilities that the Brentford Chairman has shelved as to risky so it may no longer provide as good an option as when first floated.

There is an unused sports arena in the Feltham area which is a significant white elephant and has been for years, called ďFeltham ArenasĒ probably not possible but Itís a 5 minutes walk From Feltham Station and is owned by Hounslow council, and close to Hazlewood

Some info on the site [investhounslow.com]

Looks like itís already been a graveyard for a couple of development projects

Jon, Nimbyism never stopped anything in the long term if you really have the stomach for a fight and prepared to play the long game. Chelsea didn't need to fight...they just had the money to go elsewhere !

If a Planning Application actually goes to appeal to the Sec of State, then it's heard purely on planning grounds and it doesn't matter what the locals think. Locals can only influence things (with Councillors etc) when it stays local and if goes to appeal it's heard remotely, and as long the application is sound from a planning perspective, it will be passed !

You only have to look at the current Hazelwood set up, to see that if you chip away and answer concerns you can usually get what you want planning wise (albit it with some restrictions, which you can work on later). Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on which side you're on, that's the way the planning business works.

If you're really serious and be prepared for setbacks and play the long game, you'll eventually get what you want.....and I'm sure that Hazelwood is the ultimate long game, nothing else makes long term commercial sense unless the man with the big bag of sugar turns up !

How long approx do you think the "long game" that you suggest would take Finno? 5-10 years maybe? That would be just for planning if we did manage to chip away at residents etc, then you have to get the finance and actually build something like a premiership stadium? Could take another few years. Bear in mind that we are losing lots every season (2m?) and that is even without being competitive enough to challenge the top of the league in financial terms. We could have spent and lost 30 odd million by the time your plan comes off. Someone has to fund that every year. Brentford is starting construction soon and will be built within three years. If we got an average 8-10k crowd without any non match day revenue it would still be a better deal than Reading. I enjoy discussing this as it is crucial in the long term survival of the club, but we will never get 10k crowds in reading. Paddy's day games are one offs, and to those who say winning games will bring people in, it didn't last year in the championship and the club has been at Mad Stad long enough to try everything. Not sure how long we've been there, 15 odd years? I live in the area and try to get people to come along and they have no interest. The passionate people on this board who go to games know this too. Brentford is the best option by far for me.

I agree, renting at Brentford is the best option for the foreseeable, but ultimately, for the best
possibility of being sustainable, ownership of our own stadium is a must. There is no reason why all that can't be progressed in parallel.

We own enough land to make that a reality, and surely it must be ultimate aim!

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: CharlieG (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 10:06

I am not convinced that we will get bigger crowds in Brentford. OK, there are more people in London than in Reading, but there is also more competition - Quins, Sarries, Richmond, Scottish, etc., and that support will already have decided where their loyalties lie.

What will increase the numbers is, as Fatlad points out, "good winning rugby", and we used to get this in Reading.

Personally, I can't see much difference between Brentford and Reading:

Both stadiums built primarily for football
Similarish size - 17k vs 24k - it's not as if one was 50k and the other 10k
No mid-week revenue at either

There is currently good car parking at Reading, and after the changes it will still be better than Brentford.

The new Green Park railway station has been given the go-ahead, and, as far as I can see, this will make public transport access at Reading easier than Brentford.

In the long term, Brentford may be better, but I can't help feeling that the club will initially struggle to replace the lost support, and I do worry about what the impact will be in the interim.

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Strom (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 10:37

Sale rugby, located in the Greater Manchester conurbation, population 2.5M gets crowds of 5-6K.
Wasps, only just in the Greater Birmingham conurbation,population 3M+, gets crowds of 12-14K and sometimes 18-20K.

The best team in the AP, Sarries moved to North London, overall catchment 12M+ but do not get huge crowds. What 10K? and only rarely do they extend the stands to take 15K.

Exeter, local population max 500K, crowds 8K-9K but down from previous years.

No local Union competition for each. Two long established the other two movers. All the above own their own stadia AFAIK.

I can't conclude that a move is in any way beneficial to crowd numbers. (Sm147)

Re: Brentford - The proposed stadium changes
Posted by: Bazzo (IP Logged)
Date: 06 October, 2017 11:19

I would love to see us stay in Reading and fill the stadium every week. I just have never seen that in my time so i can understand the need to move. I actually don't know when we had 10k at every game. I know the Paddys day game and double header helps get our average up. Would like nothing better than a full Mad Stad, just do not see it happening anytime soon even if we do win games. I cant get any of my friends to go. In all honesty the first game back in Reading after winning the championship and beating Quins in Twickenham had 5k people at it, compared to other premiership clubs that is poor. Hope we do get better crowds this year.

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