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I never moan but........
Posted by: Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 18:53

I know we shouldn't keep moaning about coaching but as so many of you have asked for my opinion..
At the start of last season Jim said he hardly ever got his tracksuit on and did coaching, ( Cockers said the same ) but now had an oversight role and in particular recruitment. I think he has done very well at it. But..
Rumours are many that when top players come Th the Gardens they are not happy with coaching/training. Example Kahn comes to us as the third best 9 around, never looked comfortable in his role, went to Bath, superstar. Well very good anyway.
We have a pack of very good players who can't scrum. Terrible for a Saints fan to say that, it hurts. We have o prop who is out of breath by the time he leaves the tunnel and gives away the same penalty time after time.
We have a very good centre who went off to play for England and came back worse. You cannot constantly lose the ball in contact without it being a technique problem to be sorted out by the coaches.
Why are our England players not developing and adapting their games as time passes?
If a person has hair in his eyes that he constantly brushes back could a coach mention peripheral vision is important.
Can we nurture Harry and help him become the class act he can be?
All of the above are great players,additional players look exciting but are the coaches up to it? Do players need a fresh voice every so often? When others were playing box kick chase we were playing meerkat then just kick it to the opposition. The crowd would groan but nothing changed. Now I know some people don't like to critisise the coaches but.....

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Chris Parr (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 18:57

Just out of interest since so many are asking your opinion, your credentials are?

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: herbie85 (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:05

Terrible hands doesn't equate to losing the ball in contact. But you make some value points

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: David Tavener (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:08

Isn't it a new season now....slate gets wiped clean! But points of areas do need improvement.

It's the time when the players focus and look to get the preparation for the coming season to get the little points right that became marginally incorrect.

Sitting there and moaning about last season now does not prove anything...I'm also getting a bit peeved off at people blaming the kicker in box kicks too like it's always their fault. The box kick requires another player to chase...if they can get to the ball challenge the ball...if you look to be second best then close the player down so they don't get easy yards!

Best thing you can do is not listen to rumours and hype and just support what is to come. How else does someone put something right or make it better if someone else is constantly bring up the past!

Last season was a frustrating one...but it was last season...move on now please!

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: twsaint (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:35

You've never been on this site until this week, so who was been asking you?

You are right though; stop moaning about the coaching.

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:40

Quote:
Chris Parr
Just out of interest since so many are asking your opinion, your credentials are?

Did you really say that?.... tell you what let's close down the message board because probably none of us have coached at prem club level. Let's also ban all rugby related conversations in the Rodber bar and all other bars in the ground.

Indeed I would go further, the club should fund a private security force to patrol all bars and food outlets within a 2 mile radius of Franklins Gardens. Anyone discussing anything rugby related is given a lifetime ban unless it is supprtive of the current management.


Management is temporary, saintsmen are here for life... criticism and plaudits all part of professional sport.

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Chris Parr (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:49

You appear to be missing my point. As so many people are asking your opinion, I was merely keen to learn your breadth of experience. I assume that that you have coaching experience within the community game. My post was not meant to upset you, so if I struck a nerve then I apologise

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:49

Dear HantSaint,

I will extend a hand of welcome, please ignore the typical sycophantic and aggressive stuff above.

Yes there are some anecdotes that would suggest various sub-optimal coaching of players or at least some seemingly quality players not achieving their potential. However I firmly believe Alan Dickens will become a top level coach, and I am hopeful Phil Dowson will bring some cohesion between the coaches and players. There is clearly a relationship issue between at least parts of the squad and the players, fingers crossed he is the glue between them.

Thank god for eddie jones, he has improved every player who's gone to England - the opposite of what seemed to happen in years past.

There are some world level backs arriving and I'm hoping they come with attitude and ideas. As long as the coaching unit shows sufficient humility to hear ideas and develop our style/methods there is no reason why we can't be successful.

As for the scrum, yes no-one can argue it was rubbish last year against the very top sides. We gifted easy points and chunks of yardage game after game, it is Dorians bread and butter so I'm sure he is working doubly hard over the summer to repair his reputation in that area.


Hopeful but things need to change as I'm sure our opponents will be evolving their games further.

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:51

Quote:
Chris Parr
You appear to be missing my point. As so many people are asking your opinion, I was merely keen to learn your breadth of experience. I assume that that you have coaching experience within the community game. My post was not meant to upset you, so if I struck a nerve then I apologise


Are you taking to me or the original poster ? Chris I know you have criticised Saracens in the recent past so I wonder whether you're qualified to criticise the European back-to-back champions....

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: fleetg (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 19:51

I agree with you Chris.
It was patently obvious that you were simply asking a question : Jeez people really do look for reasons to take offence these days !!!😁

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Viggo (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 20:22

Typical training session last season, as told to me by a player who left this summer.
Jim stands on the sides with his arms crossed and shouts a couple of things.
Day coaches the lineout
West does 20 mins on the scrums
Dickens deals with everyone else
He said its an awful atmosphere.
I spoke to the same player at the weekend, he has just completed 4 weeks with his new club and cannot believe the difference ! a small thing, but he said just to see players laughing and smiling was a nice change.
Hopefully the new players and Dowson will bring a change of atmosphere.

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 20:26

Quote:
Viggo
Typical training session last season, as told to me by a player who left this summer.
Jim stands on the sides with his arms crossed and shouts a couple of things.
Day coaches the lineout
West does 20 mins on the scrums
Dickens deals with everyone else
He said its an awful atmosphere.
I spoke to the same player at the weekend, he has just completed 4 weeks with his new club and cannot believe the difference ! a small thing, but he said just to see players laughing and smiling was a nice change.
Hopefully the new players and Dowson will bring a change of atmosphere.


no rocket scientist needed to guess who that is !

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 20:26

Shock! Gasp! Ex-employee thinks that new employer is better than the previous one.

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: HungryLikeTheWolf (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 20:27

Quote:
Saintly Pursuit
Shock! Gasp! Ex-employee thinks that new employer is better than the previous one.


Shock player playing for best coaching setup is enjoying it....

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Thrupp artist (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 21:05

Has someone moved to Exeter?

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: StBleach (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 21:25

Wish this site had. A ' like ' button..

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Saint Jericho (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 21:27

The season has not even started yet. Can we all just play nicely?

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Happywifehappylife (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 21:34

Do we really need to go here again?

Have to say the "off season" debate & topics have been absolutely superb - thanks guys (& gals)!

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Chris Parr (IP Logged)
Date: 17 July, 2017 23:05

Thank you for that fleetg. There do seem to be some very sensitive souls out there. In answer to you Hungry, I wasn't criticising anybody but yes it was aimed at the original poster .

Re: I never moan but........
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 18 July, 2017 00:35

I once had a telephone interview for a weeks work on DIY SoS as a runner when I finished my degree. I wasn't very well & having mental health problems at the time but when the assistant producer on the over end of the phone told me that I'd be expected to work for petrol money you can imagine my attitude towards the potential employment changed.
AP: So what experience do you have, erm, Robert?
Me: Well I've seen over 7 films including 102 Dalmatians twice!
AP: And what about experience in the building industry
Me: I used to run a construction company with my father
AP: Really?
Me: Yes, we used to bury people under patios for MI5.
AP: Oh...
*Click*

And that's a story about how if you expect little from people, you'll get little from people...

Look, yes, clean slate.

But there's been little evidence of improvement from the coaching staff, though some are relatively new in their promoted roles so that's kinda fair enough. To enforce a sea change in the middle of the season is never going to happen and is essentially the wrong way to go anyways. People don't like it when you tear everything up & it means massive adjustments for just about anyone. We've all seen it in all walk of life, let alone in rugby.

So that means marginal gains, slow progression but with empirical evidence of improvement.
And that is basically what we saw. Whilst results remained disappointing the standard of rugby, the brand we were playing did improve as we seemed to realise that playing to Picamoles strengths was probably a good idea. success came in the final game of the season but yes, answers to long term questions still remain.

Hoppers and his poisoned chalice is of particular concern, not because Hoppers isn't a capable coach but because our defence has seemingly fallen off a cliff in the last 18 months & it's a huge job. Can it be fixed inside of 5 or 6 weeks of preseason? No, it's something to keep an eye on progressively over the season.

One thing of concern that might be perceived as being critical of the players is what seemed like (& no, I can't properly substantiate it, it's just the same issue raised by various separate sources) some of the standards had dropped across the squad, as did confidence & the coaching staff, the support team and the players themselves have had to rebuild this. Again, if this is the case it takes time to fix & repair.

Lastly I'll leave you this about Smudger

Over the course of his career Wayne Smith had cultivated an eagle-eyed ability to identify the minute flaws and areas of development in most players but also had a wide-ranging skill set in order to aid player improvement. In doing this it eliminated a culture of blame between the players but also meant that the constant highlighting of errors would often mentally drain individuals and began to generate a mind-set of personal self-doubt rather than as mentioned previously as part of a championship culture, validating group members with positive empirical evidence of improvement. Smith would often pick out the 1 missed tackle rather than congratulate the player on the 10 they made.

With the Super Rugby season being a great deal shorter than the premiership, Wayne over time had to contend with elements that were new to him & his coaching team- The mental and physical grind of the ten month season, having to contend with poor conditions & variable pitches across the country, the varying strength of the opposition side and pressure of needing to finish inside the top 4 and avoid a relegation battle.

The need to win was constant, the need to perform to Smith's exalted standards equally so, but by wanting to treat every game as a cup final had a long term negative effect as it added to the pressure and drained the group of energy. Whilst driving standards and wanting players to improve is imperative, discovering a diverse means to freshen up the message, to offer praise and criticism in equal measure allows an opportunity to cultivate a positive atmosphere inside the squad that lasts longer over the course of the gruelling & demanding season.

For the 'sons of Smith' (Grayse, Tom Smith, our kid, Rob Hunter, Vassy, Joe Shaw, Ali Hepher, Bruce, Johan Ackermann) this was a very grounding experience & they will have utilised many elements as the foundation of their own coaching & management ethos with some augmentation and adapting to the way the game has evolved in recent years. Quickly identifying the various individuals’ characters & understanding the strongest & weakest areas of their game can achieve both long term and short term success & improvement with this approach.

However, identifying the opportune time when to increase pressure on improving standards and when detecting signs of stress or external pressures to temper those demands for high standards and individual improvement. Yet one constant that remains is developing a relationship with the players, built on trust & straight-talking honesty but I'd guess, and again, it's a bit of a wild guess, that Saints would be best served in augmenting the model used by Smith & ensuring in building confidence & self-reliance in the group to perform skills/techniques without fear or hesitation & at a consistently high standard.



Sent from the toilet

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