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Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Nath-coys (IP Logged)
Date: 11 September, 2017 17:18

Little insight of the Monday debriefing after the Saracens game from Luther.

Sounds like there was no mincing the words! Which is good to hear!

Also read a bit of how Dylan and Courts have been driving the standards! Which is crucial for any team that wants to succeed, to have a group of players demanding high standards across the board!

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Walks11 (IP Logged)
Date: 11 September, 2017 20:04

As suspected the words used in privacy of the squad is a little different to ones trotted out to the media. Perhaps the 'have it in for Jim' brigade will take note

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Saintlyg (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 05:44

They won't do that walks, they have their own agenda.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Aylesbury Saint (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 06:44

Well I think it is wrong he doesn't come out and single out players for criticism and tell the world how bad they are. Who here wouldn't love their boss to stand them in the middle of the office to give them a dressing down in front of all their colleagues? Sounds like the perfect way to build good morale!

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: FatAlan (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 10:38

EJ seems to have got something right with England so you would have thought our England lads would be looking to export some of that back to Saints. I would also like to think Jim and co would be picking their brains as well.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 12:56

Quote:
Walks11
As suspected the words used in privacy of the squad is a little different to ones trotted out to the media. Perhaps the 'have it in for Jim' brigade will take note

Walks11 - I'm sure you will be familiar with the phrase "Actions speak louder than words"?

Well compare JM - who only a couple of years ago was being touted for the England job - with the current incumbent, Eddie Jones.

He identifies people who need to improve - witness Tom Wood and James Haskell. They both deal with it and improve significantly. And he doesn't always keep his thoughts on the player to himself.

Perhaps the "have it in for Jim" brigade, expect JM to be able to do something similar with the squad he has. Or is that expecting too much?

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: SaintsAsh (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 13:11

Longers, you are comparing apples with pears. Eddie Jones can afford to say what he like as he can simply find another player. A league coach cannot simply drop players willie nilly, tell them to improve, choose another player from another team in the meantime and then wait for that player to work on his game before playing him again. As an international coach Eddie can do that.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: herbie85 (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 13:29

Saints ash you make a decent point, although JM has a decent squad but has historically been very reluctant to change things when he has options. It will be interesting to see if ford Robinson gets many games as he toured with England in the summer and now has three in two for the wandies. I'm not advocating too many changes as the performance at the weekend was good but to see some flexibility between a successful wandies and the first team can only be a benefit in selecting on form

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 13:53

I think its fair to expect a game (or at least a spot on the bench ) if you perform well and the incumbent does not.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 14:23

Quote:
SaintsAsh
Longers, you are comparing apples with pears. Eddie Jones can afford to say what he like as he can simply find another player. A league coach cannot simply drop players willie nilly, tell them to improve, choose another player from another team in the meantime and then wait for that player to work on his game before playing him again. As an international coach Eddie can do that.

SaintAsh. I fundamentally disagree. Why?

Because every single player in the Saints squad is there thanks to Jim. Directly or indirectly. They owe him and he owes us.

I fully accept that he cannot chop and change, but then neither can Eddie and I would argue that Jim actually has more opportunities to develop these players than Eddie does as he is with them every day of the week.

Similarly, the support team is there because of Jim, so if we have a beef with the scrums, or attack, or defence, we look for the accountability at Jim's door.

I do not actually look at this from a coaching perspective, but a management one.

Example; scrums. We have a problem. I know that because we tend not to go forward today and we give away an horrendous number of penalties. Too many. I cannot begin to suggest where the problem lies, or what it is. But I can see we have a problem.
Jim has a scrum coach, I believe that to be Dorian West, so Dorian - get it sorted. I would expect that of any management team. Identify the problem(s) and get them sorted. Swiftly. We have had this particular problem for best part of two years now, and it would appear to still be there today. So it is reasonable to ask why Dorian has not got it sorted, yet.

So I lay the issues at Jim's door.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Dragonboy (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 14:55

+1

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 17:32

Spot on Longers

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: St.Sinner (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 18:29

Quote:
Longers
Quote:
SaintsAsh
Longers, you are comparing apples with pears. Eddie Jones can afford to say what he like as he can simply find another player. A league coach cannot simply drop players willie nilly, tell them to improve, choose another player from another team in the meantime and then wait for that player to work on his game before playing him again. As an international coach Eddie can do that.

SaintAsh. I fundamentally disagree. Why?

Because every single player in the Saints squad is there thanks to Jim. Directly or indirectly. They owe him and he owes us.

I fully accept that he cannot chop and change, but then neither can Eddie and I would argue that Jim actually has more opportunities to develop these players than Eddie does as he is with them every day of the week.

Similarly, the support team is there because of Jim, so if we have a beef with the scrums, or attack, or defence, we look for the accountability at Jim's door.

I do not actually look at this from a coaching perspective, but a management one.

Example; scrums. We have a problem. I know that because we tend not to go forward today and we give away an horrendous number of penalties. Too many. I cannot begin to suggest where the problem lies, or what it is. But I can see we have a problem.
Jim has a scrum coach, I believe that to be Dorian West, so Dorian - get it sorted. I would expect that of any management team. Identify the problem(s) and get them sorted. Swiftly. We have had this particular problem for best part of two years now, and it would appear to still be there today. So it is reasonable to ask why Dorian has not got it sorted, yet.

So I lay the issues at Jim's door.

+1

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: MarchingIn (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 18:52

Quote:
Duckonstilts
I think its fair to expect a game (or at least a spot on the bench ) if you perform well and the incumbent does not.

Put yourself in his position.

He went on tour with England, Hill and Brookes did not, therefore in the eyes of the National coach he is our #1 in that position.
He was named in the Telegraph team of the week on one of his final games at Bristol.
He's scored 3 from 2 in the reserves.

So... hes clearly well regarded, and in form, but not even had a sniff of the bench when Eadie walked pretty much straight into a starting slot.

If he doesn't play at least 20 minutes in this week's match then whoever it is at Saints that is picking the front row, is pretty clueless about man management as I imagine he'll be totally frustrated.

That's when people's heads go down one way or the other - they either lose interest or try too hard and regress.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: twsaint (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 20:32

Paul Hill was selected for the England tour but withdrew injured.

Kieran Brookes failed an HIA on Saturday.He had a good game v Sarries.

Anyone joining a club knows he has to win a spot.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: jimusjones (IP Logged)
Date: 12 September, 2017 20:44

I don't think Jim "owes" us anything.

Does he owe us for our support or for paying money to watch them play? As saints supporters would we not support the club whether he was DOR or not?

I go to watch saints and by choice and only hope that my team win and play well. Unfortunately this is sport and there are 11 other teams trying to achieve the same thing with (theoretically) the same budget.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Abington Adam (IP Logged)
Date: 13 September, 2017 08:35

Quote:
Saintlyg
They won't do that walks, they have their own agenda.

I'm pretty sure that the agenda of every Saints fan is to see our club competing for silverware. We just disagree over the means to that end.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 13 September, 2017 10:29

Quote:
jimusjones
.....I don't think Jim "owes" us anything.
Does he owe us for our support or for paying money to watch them play? As saints supporters would we not support the club whether he was DOR or not? ........


Perhaps "Owe" was a poor choice of word.

He does have a duty to his employers to achieve certain targets, which he has failed to do for the past two seasons. So in that sense, I used the word "owe" as an indication of the commitment I believe any employer can expect from an employee. And in professional sport, I believe that this also extends to the stakeholders, of which the supporters form an element.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Walks11 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 September, 2017 11:56

Quote:
Longers
Quote:
Walks11
As suspected the words used in privacy of the squad is a little different to ones trotted out to the media. Perhaps the 'have it in for Jim' brigade will take note

Walks11 - I'm sure you will be familiar with the phrase "Actions speak louder than words"?

Well compare JM - who only a couple of years ago was being touted for the England job - with the current incumbent, Eddie Jones.

He identifies people who need to improve - witness Tom Wood and James Haskell. They both deal with it and improve significantly. And he doesn't always keep his thoughts on the player to himself.

Perhaps the "have it in for Jim" brigade, expect JM to be able to do something similar with the squad he has. Or is that expecting too much?

I think you have missed my point.. which is those that criticise his bland media comments somehow think this is reflected in his communications with the squad in private. My point is that it's a farcical notion as he isn't going to single people out in the media he isn't going to rant and rave to the media about refereeing, players, coaches, etc. What we see is a diluted interview that trots out the usual bland sound bites, as most others do. We don't see what goes on behind closed doors but I bet everything I own that it's not the media Jim the players see.

You make some good points and agree but there are some on here that think if a flag flutters in the wrong direction it would be Jims fault. Fair enough they are entitled to their opinion but reading the same old stuff week in week out becomes dull

Also the get Jim out brigade shouldn't be venting their comments at the man himself but his boss surely.

Re: Called us 'Soft'
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 14 September, 2017 12:47

Quote:
Walks11
Quote:
Longers
Quote:
Walks11
As suspected the words used in privacy of the squad is a little different to ones trotted out to the media. Perhaps the 'have it in for Jim' brigade will take note

Walks11 - I'm sure you will be familiar with the phrase "Actions speak louder than words"?

Well compare JM - who only a couple of years ago was being touted for the England job - with the current incumbent, Eddie Jones.

He identifies people who need to improve - witness Tom Wood and James Haskell. They both deal with it and improve significantly. And he doesn't always keep his thoughts on the player to himself.

Perhaps the "have it in for Jim" brigade, expect JM to be able to do something similar with the squad he has. Or is that expecting too much?

I think you have missed my point.. which is those that criticise his bland media comments somehow think this is reflected in his communications with the squad in private. My point is that it's a farcical notion as he isn't going to single people out in the media he isn't going to rant and rave to the media about refereeing, players, coaches, etc. What we see is a diluted interview that trots out the usual bland sound bites, as most others do. We don't see what goes on behind closed doors but I bet everything I own that it's not the media Jim the players see.

You make some good points and agree but there are some on here that think if a flag flutters in the wrong direction it would be Jims fault. Fair enough they are entitled to their opinion but reading the same old stuff week in week out becomes dull

Also the get Jim out brigade shouldn't be venting their comments at the man himself but his boss surely.

Possibly so.

But he can still show his displeasure/dissatisfaction by dropping a player, or subbing him after 30 minutes. You get my drift? But he doesn't. Remember the "Undroppables" thread?

As for the direction of the wind I understand fully your point. I may even fall into that category myself.

And your final point - the board have come in for a significant amount of criticism over the past twelve months, including the question of how a manager fails to hit his targets and still retains his job, so I think that has been addressed. But he appears to work for a group, rather than an individual, so it can become a little confusing.

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