Stadium Development


The new rec?
By CoochieCoo
January 12 2018

COML has been invited to join with other groups to give input into the development of the Rec. I have agreed with Hasta and PG Tips to represent COML on these meetings which are monthly. The meetings are for a communication line between us and the Club and vice versa.

In order that we can be heard and be able to participate effectively I would appreciate your views on aspects of the development that are important to you. Please respond on this thread. I suggest that comments on the following subjects in line with the Club's document "Exploring The Opportunity" be a starting point, but not exhaustive:

1. Design - Heritage aspects (visual of stadium,views of surrounds, height), Daylight (influence on playing surface, sun etc), Floodlighting, Sound systems, Infrastructure and Facilties (toilets, drainage), Sustainability (energy efficient, materials), Technology (TV screen, clocks, WiFi)

2. Environment - Riverside, Access, Trees, Flooding, 

3. Transport and Access - Pedestrian Access, P&R, Train, Buses, Accessibility,

4. Matchday Experience - Seat views, Roof cover, TV Screens and PA, Toilets, Bars, Restaurants, Eating Outlets, Pricing, Stewards

5. Community, Sporting Participation and Well Being - Artificial surface, grass, ability to be used for other activities, conference facilities, function restaurant & bar, 

6. Economic Impact - Multi purpose, Winter impact on Bath economy, 

7. Accessibility - Food outlets, Bars, accesibility issues, stairs, gangways.

Thank you

pqs: qs:
Stadium Development
Posted by: Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 12/01/2018 18:21

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Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Awp24975 (IP Logged)
Date: 13/01/2018 09:22

A roof for the terrace is all I want please (although last night would be deafening with a roof the amount of noise the Scarlets made!!)

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 15/01/2018 15:57

Coochie

My thoughts:

1. Design –

• Modern design (not Georgian pastiche) but in keeping- using Bath stone where appropriate
• Roofing only for spectator comfort-allowing maximum daylight on playing area
• Height & profile not to obscure view of Abbey from south or Sham Castle from Abbey
• WiFi)

2. Environment –
• landscape riverside including trees & shrubs
• Ensure view over river is maintained
• Include bars & restaurants in west stand with view of river


3. Transport and Access -
• Wheelchair accessibility at all gates
• Wheelchair area on each side of pitch - in stand accessible by ramp
• Bicycle racks


4. Matchday Experience –
• All seats to be able to see all sides of pitch, plus local landmarks (i.e.
• Abbey, Sham Castle) within current views
• TV screen to be visible from all areas of ground
• Audible PA system that works regularly


5. Community,
• A music venue (summer time)
• Use (as now) for significant amateur rugby events – Combination Final etc.
Available for other sports in off season (within limits of pitch maintenance
• Education – consider educational tours to describe the architectural, structural and engineering approach & how it was achieved.
• Summer use by charities – e.g local underprivileged or handicapped children
• Available for other sports in off season (within limits of pitch maintenance)

6. Economic Impact -
• Music venue
• Conference facilities
• Gym facilities/squash courts?

PG

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Tall Paul (IP Logged)
Date: 16/01/2018 19:19

As someone that lives too far away for a day trip, I tend to come with my brother and sister in law to matches and make a weekend of it.

For me the biggest improvement would be a roof. Having got soaked through to the skin on more than one occasion, it really takes away from the enjoyment of the entire weekend. I also think it would benefit the atmosphere. Though I hate to say it, the Shed is world famous, and living in Leeds for 10 years, the South Stand at Headingley is just as infamous in RL circles. I have seen the roof credited with adding to the atmosphere of both of these stands, and it is rare that the Rec is complimented in the same way. And I don't believe for one second that it is down to us fans!

Aside from a roof, and at the risk of being controversial, I would like a plastic pitch. I know that historically we have not done so well on them, but in my opinion they encourage a more open, running style play and that is more likely to make me want to come to the city to watch. We already practice on half of one and enough other teams use them now to make them not too strange.

Matt Garvey- proudly adopted for 2017-18

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 16/01/2018 19:20

I would love a plastic pitch, but suspect we won't have a chance.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 16/01/2018 19:28

Thank you all, please keep it coming. It would be nice to know that the COML voice is loud and influential.

Hasta, I understand that all options are on the table. Plastic pitches I think are not so much a planning issue but a Trustees permission issue.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 16/01/2018 23:04

Borrowed from TG Pips’ format.

1. Design -
• TBH, I’d be happy with Georgian pastiche, but maybe a better detail than SouthGate. I’d be happy for columns all the way along the riverside frontage, even up to the slope (so long as the trees get relocated) as that would give a maximised terrace for cafes, conference, whatever.
• Roof all the way round, with light fittings attached so no poles up high and getting in the way of the view. No need for a steep rake to keep sight lines/height to a minimum. Maybe glass at the rear for some connectivity to the green hilled views.
• Happy to play up to the Roman theme if it gives a sense of identity. Agree not to everyone’s taste, but I worry today’s modern is tomorrow’s Sports Centre.
• If possible, incorporate the Sports Centre under the stands and build the conferencing/hotel facilities where the spots centre is (bar the pool). I know it’d be a shame to waste the recent investment, but it’s a good opportunity to replace the central eyesore into something more sympathetic.
• East Stand should split in two and rotate outfield by pivoting at the north east and south east corners opening up a huge seating area onto the majority of the Rec, possibly enabling cricket to be played on there. The stand to be named after me, with my current mood projected as a giant avatar at the back of the stand showing my elation (thumbs up or barely persceptible nod) or displeasure (Brexiteer on question time shades of purple) depending upon how the team are playing. My booming voice over the PA exhorting more grunt punching and/or punch grunting whether a game is being played or not. If this is too much of an engineering feat, then I want the Rec completely flat with a buried stadium that Thunderbirds 200m up into the air, hovering on jets or up to 12 tethered drones from Argos. I’m pretty sure I saw this in a Mario game on the Wii, so it can clearly be done.

2. Environment –
• Landscape riverside including trees & shrubs where possible, and enhance the entrances. Living roof?
• Hybrid pitch to improve resilience. I think a plastic pitch may not be ideal for such a culturally sensitive area, though would benefit the community and usage much more. The latest organic infill ones may prove the best of the lot though.
• Non-game rooftop tours for a great view and revenue.


3. Transport and Access -
• Set down and pick up shuttle buses from the P&Rs, maybe for those of limited mobility from the train station. Using injured players as drivers should mean we are able to put on 20+ coaches each game.
• Better security, bollard protection, etc. for what will be a big crowd in a small area.
• Sensible gate entry. Friends 4 rows from me have to use the Sports Centre Gate, me the William Street. A bit of flexilibility (middle third of seats in a stand can use either entrance) or the ability to nominate a second entrance would make life easier for quite a few supporters I reckon.


4. Matchday Experience –
• Seat spacing suitable for adult use. I know I’ve put on weight over Christmas, but there’s still only one of me in that seat.
• TV screen to be visible from all areas of ground.
• Audible PA system that works regularly.
• Enhanced bladder capacity for those who sit on my row.
• Enough facilities or swifter pay/delivery mechanisms so we can do a minimum of two out of loo, bar or food instead of picking our most favourite/desperate.
• Better beer. I like a decent pint of Bath Ales. What is served is not a decent pint. I know it’s keg, but coupling it with a plastic cup makes it taste far away from what it should be. I know there are logistics involved with serving a decent ale, but it makes me not want to drink at the Rec. Maybe consider getting some local craft beer in which is far better matched to keg. Bath Ales’ own Beerd have an ok range, better still get Electric Bear or Kettlesmith in. There are plenty of phenomenal breweries in Bristol too. Indie Spirit should have a stand in there. Also consider serving it in those cans where the whole of the top can be ring pulled off. No pour time, much less of a projectile. Can provide an example if you need.

5. Community -
• What Tetley said.
• Consider Bath City playing there for their big games. Ken Loach’s ticket to mysteriously disintegrate into dust when presented at the gate.
• Incorporate a multi function clubhouse that meets the aspirations of All Sports For All.

6. Economic Impact -
• Music venue - either as a building or enable open air in the stadium (I still want Metallica opening the place as a nice hello to all three of the antis).
• Hotel. Not sure on this one, if its even a consideration. If there’s too much commercial stuff, and IF Bath Rugby Stadiums Offshore Limited are paying a smaller rent than we’d have got from a private landlord, then the development wouldn’t sit right with me. Perhaps the trust could be gifted ownership of any hotel and manage the revenues to maintain funding. Perhaps too much commercial risk though. I just don’t want us to be getting away with exploiting prime land for Primark prices or all our campaigning about community has been for nought.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 08:21

Very good. On the pastiche point, part of me wants to see it. The other part feels that getting it right would be very hard, and even then still not make everyone happy, so feels that a good contemporary design might be preferable.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 09:27

Let’s face it, there is no one design that won’t split opinion, so I guess it needs to best meet UNESCO’s requirements above all.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 09:40

Yes and UNESCO have allowed the shambles on the Rec as well as the Bus station in granting and renewing WH status. It wouldn't take much to better what we have at the moment.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 10:49

How big is the Bath panel of UNESCO representatives? I’m assuming they will continue to have a massive say at all stages in development. Whilst anything is an improvement over the scaffold and barn we currently have, it’s still a revolutionary change and an opportunity for a significant improvement so we can’t assume their endorsement based on what’s currently there.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 12:10

This is the salient comment in respect of the approach to the development and UNESCO

Quote:
In respect of contemporary development and contemporary architecture, the Management Plan (B&NES) notes at paragraph 5.2.32 that ‘there are now some notable examples of contemporary architecture within the site, including the Thermae Bath Spa, the Bus Station, Milsom Place and the Holburne Museum. Previous references in this Plan and the UNESCO Mission report have indicated that high quality contemporary architecture is a desirable method of design for new buildings.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 12:39

OK, that says a lot right there then. Unlikely to be pastiche I guess.

Has anyone considered an additional pedestrian bridge connecting to Parade Gardens? Could also help with footfall on match days.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 13:23

Quote:
hasta
I would love a plastic pitch, but suspect we won't have a chance.
plastic reinforcement for me, but certainly not a plastic pitch.
Desso hybrid is comfortably the best option on the market at the moment IMO.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018:01:17:13:24:04 by Which Tyler.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Tall Paul (IP Logged)
Date: 17/01/2018 21:23

Given that they are also doing Wimbledon, how about a retractable roof? Would make our Welsh contingent feel more at home, too!

Matt Garvey- proudly adopted for 2017-18

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Pie-Half (IP Logged)
Date: 18/01/2018 19:10

Quote:
Which Tyler
Quote:
hasta
I would love a plastic pitch, but suspect we won't have a chance.
plastic reinforcement for me, but certainly not a plastic pitch.
Desso hybrid is comfortably the best option on the market at the moment IMO.

I am also agreed on the hybrid pitch.

I am fairly sure that whilst light is a major factor in the grass life, one other big factor is actually air flow. When the grass in the old arena stadium were first built e.g. Amsterdam arena and Cardiff, they believed that the lack of light was stopping the grass and invested in hugely expensive light rigs, but the grass needs the air flow too to bring fresh air for their growth as well. As long as there are enough gaps and low points for air flow over the pitch then crack on

Andy Goode's body double.

Bring back rucking and speed up the game. Simple, for rucks sake.

A.B.L.

Levi Douglas - Adopted player 2017/18
Tom Homer - Adopted player 2016/17

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: rainbow (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 09:23

I and many other old timers have been patiently awaiting "development" of a new stadium at the Rec' for about 20 years give or take 15 minutes or so and despite the latest exciting "developments" is it really any closer. Has permission been granted to build, a small point, i don't want to pour cold water on things but dream on. But what's wrong with having dreams?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 10:35

I believe that planning permission hasn't yet been considered. But we are definitely a few steps forward from where we were a couple of years back. There were some real blocks due to the nature of the land that have been slowly unpicked.

Even in the shortest case, this is going to take some time and to get it right longer still. In that sense, you're right to check your excitement.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 11:00

The blocks for the development in the past were mainly due to charitable law. The Court of Appeal judgement has changed the game considerably, e.g. The Charitable Trust have complete power to dispose of land as long as it is in the charity's interest. Dispose means leasing out land or selling it.

Planning permission is a different ball game and is up to the planning authorities. The prospect of development at the Rec has been recognised by the Council and UNESCO as follows:

Quote:
The World Heritage Site Management Plans 2010-2022 notes the prospect of development coming forward at the Rec, stating at paragraph 5.2.31 that ‘Bath Rugby Club play at the Recreation Ground in the heart of the city and their presence provides civic pride and identity, plus a boost to the economy (especially in winter months when tourist numbers are low). The rugby club are looking to increase their capacity to accommodate spectators, and provide a new stadium on their current site within the city.’

Yes there will be further hurdles and the fiends will cry foul. However, some imaginative thinking will be used and I understand that planning permission will be sought later this year.

Please keep your suggestions coming either on this thread or PM me. We are one of the platforms the Club needs to get the message across along with our colleagues on FB and the Supporters Club.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 11:35

Don't you need a plan before planning permission can be sought?
Isn't the whole point of this thread that the club are putting together a plan, alongside a world-renowned architect having finally being given permission to apply for planning permission as of last year.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 11:52

Never known a planning committee pass a project without a plan! That is why we need to feed ideas to the Architect!

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 12:10

Can't we just refer them to this thread, personally I think they should go with PG's ideas.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 12:23

PGs ideas have been duly noted as those of others. Remember in the past the Club were restricted because of ChC, they have a blank piece of paper now! What about turning the pitch to go East West?

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Beergoggles (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 13:06

1. Roof over the spectators please
2. Sight lines to see the entire pitch, including the important bit where the tries are scored
3. Enough catering facilities for the capacity to get a pie and a pint in a half time break
4. Enough toilet facilities for all, that means the ladies too
5. If we're to have a big screen all paying customers to be able to see it
6. Working PA system with controllable volume
7. Design in keeping with Bath's world heritage status. Doesn't mean it has to be a Disney style Roman coliseum though.
8. Retain the Bath 'recreation ground' city centre location
9. Floodlighting that's bright enough for Prem Rugby
10. Maintain some terraced standing
11. Open up the waterfront and form a link between the new stadium and the rest of the city (instead of being behind a breeze block wall)

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 13:17

What would the benefit of that be CC? I'm not against it, but purely from my own comfort point of view I'm pretty agnostic.

I think access to the west stand might be key, a possibly a good reason to re-orientate (may the capacity compressed by the river smaller and open up the two sides).

I'd like to see the riverside well used on non-match days. I'm sure you can make that into a real feature that benefits Bath. I'm thinking a riverside "square" with facilities: restaurants, cafes, bars, entertainment that could potentially be covered from the stand behind. Probably needs more space than we've previously ever considered.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 13:19

"Maintain some terraced standing"

I'd support that.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 13:32

Also, have future capacity increase allowances somehow within the design? I'd hate for us to rapidly fill 18k only to have the same discussions in 5 years and start tearing new stands down. I'm not saying a sudden jump to 18k would happen (I think for big games it could), but lets not hamper ourselves early on.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: rainbow (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 13:39

Beergoggles Point 2 able to see the complete pitch even to the extent of seeing tries scored in the corner, i sit on the openside midway between the half-way line and the 22 and have to rely on the screen to my right to see what's gone on at the bottom left. I'm fairly sure that during the mid season promises were made and work carried out to ensure a better "match day experience" ie actually seeing what was going on i think TM was involved in that exercise. I'll have a bet i've just turned 70 i think i'll get a free TV licence when i'm 80 so which will come first the licence or a new stadium.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 14:24

Quote:
DanWiley
What would the benefit of that be CC? I'm not against it, but purely from my own comfort point of view I'm pretty agnostic.

Height will be the big issue, so to get 18k there will be a challenge especially with the East stand because of views from the Grand Parade. The further into the Rec the East stand is will help that situation. I was never good at Physics but I guess the angle will not be so acute!

Turning the pitch round also means the South Stand can be longer and height is not an issue there because we have precedence with the Sports centre and the new student castle!

West stand will have to come in to the Rec to allow for riverside cafes etc and height will be determined by the current trees and Sports centre, I think.

Club House or the new North stand height will be determined by the current height but will have to dip at Johnstone Street rising again beyond the lower windows of Johnstone street until it meets the East stand.

Needs to be worked out on paper and it will depend on how much of the east of the rec the Charity Trust will grant to the club.

The con of turning the pitch round is sun and the prevailing wind from the south west.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 19/01/2018 16:04

I can't see (excuse pun) the pitch ever moving around due to the sun glare for West facing players as you say.

Do we know how far East we can go? For example, if significant development took place along the river for leisure purposes and that forced the pitch East, would that be a problem if the leisure part was not considered as part of the rugby area? Or is there a hard stop for any development going past the East end of the South stand?

If there are height limits then this becomes a 3D modelling puzzle with a framework which any ground needs to fit inside.

For me I am sure we can design a suitable ground on 3 sides, the clever bit will be having an East stand which can be removed, rotated or opened up for the summer. Making a good job of that will go a long way to getting the plans well received in the non rugby community.

Something clever would come at great cost though and probably take away budget better served on the other 3 sides and getting a good looking arena viewed from alongside Pulteney.

One request I would have, one I have not seen mentioned, is to give those seated decent legroom and width even with the capacity reduction that would cost. I don't like having my knees crushed into the seat in front and a lot of ex players are on the large size. Once had a season ticket seat next to a retired front row, we all ended up pushed sideways!

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 20/01/2018 12:53

With waterproof concrete, and the ability to build a fully enclosed stadium... Does the option of lowering the pitch become viable?
Which allows for lower heights for the stands with slopes allowing for proper viewing angles etc.

Of course, it would need to be fully enclosed to a bit above highest recorded flood level, to avoid becoming a swimming pool whenever it rains upstream, and would presumably be pricey for excavation, but may be a good solution for some of the compromises necessary for planning.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018:01:20:12:55:36 by Which Tyler.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: bathboyinmidlands (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2018 08:39

I would pretty much concur with PG Tips views and also DanWiley makes a really good point about using this as an opportunity to make far more use of the riverside as it is currently wasted and would greatly benefit the city as a whole. Perhaps with a new footbridge across the river connecting riverside/west stand with the city (think that has already been mentioned in one of the comments).

For me roofing over all stands is a must for comfort and atmosphere.

My main concern is it not becoming another soulless concrete bowl like most modern stadiums. The Rec is unique and needs to retain that character with views of the Abbey maintained and also on the east side. I know the height has to come from somewhere to create the capacity needed so this is tricky but I would have thought we could gain the height needed at north and south ends as not blocking views especially sports centre end.

I wouldn’t be opposed to a plastic pitch as at least that might force us to adopt a defined playing style and consistent game plan and identity which we sadly lack at present.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2018 18:53

I would like a stadium that will look fantastic in 50 years time, and therefore this probably precludes a short term fashionable use of glass and metal as per the Cabot Centre.

It has to be remembered this is going to be a stadium from which, in the main rugby matches are watched from and so sightlines, lighting, pitch etc should be dictated by what is considered best in the world today and in 10 years.

The view from the Town should be enhanced, not difficult with what is there today.

Screens, loudspeakers etc should excellent for rugby and other events.

Food outlets should concentrate on healthy, alternative foods and also cover a range of budgets.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2018 21:03

"I would like a stadium that will look fantastic in 50 years time"

I'm sure it will when it's as new as that.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 21/01/2018 22:29

Sorry Dan but I don't understand what you mean???

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 22/01/2018 08:02

I was being a little cynical about the date we might actually have a finished stadium. Sorry, it my have needed a ;-)

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: BathSalmon (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 12:41

For what it's worth....

1. Design

- In keeping with the surroundings, using Bath stone ideally
- Not too much glass & metal - I personally find modern buildings date quickly
- Floodlights to comedown on non-match days, or ideally be incorporated into the roofing solution
- Externally it would be nice to have a wall or similar to celebrate past players or internationals, something for fans to go and visit.
- No TV's in the bar or breakout areas, to encourage fans to stay in their seats and contribute to the atmosphere.
- Any Wifi improvements are to be celebrated!
- Maybe provide the match-stats on the big screen at half-time, to help bring some of that TV experience to live viewing.
- Keep the front row close to the pitch, I've always felt this is one of the Rec's best features.
- That said, the in-goal area's could do with being increased.
- I like to idea to potentially sink the stadium down to reduce external sightlines / height restriction. I wouldn't though want the stands to become steeper as a result though, only because I imagine that would impact on the sightlines from inside the stadium to the Abbey and other point's of interest outside.
- Probably not practical, but perhaps explore the possibility of having the stadium profile undulating, so the stands are less high at the areas where we want to still be able to see the Abbey from within the stadium and other views outside.
- All seats should have an unrestricted view of the pitch and ideally the match clock and TV.
- All seats to be covered
- Keep terracing in part of the stadium
- Any roof design needs access to be cleaned - particularly if glass / Perspex!
- If we tap into our Roman heritage, maybe we could bring colour to the stadium by featuring flags around the roof, medieval(i.e. Roman) style drapes on the outside of the stadium etc.
- I would like the club to seriously look at a hybrid pitch, purely because it feels like we are disadvantaged when travelling to the likes of Sarries and Falcons.
- Player access to the pitch should be situated to the middle of a stand (tunnel), this always seems better than them coming from a corner of the stadium.
- Player access I think also should be kept coming from the terrace area. This would keep that connection between the fans and players which I feel we have.
- Avoid making the players come onto the pitch using steps. This always makes players tiptoe their way on, instead of run full-pelt on which always seems better.
- Obviously increase the size of the dressing rooms! They are laughably small.

2. Environment

- 100% agree with all talk of re-developing the Riverside.
- Ideally move the stadium further into the rec to create a larger Riverside area than is currently there.
- I'm torn to say put a bar on the Riverside, only because we want keep the Riverside access for all and I feel having a bar on that side would see supporters milling around outside potentially putting the general public off from visiting. Maybe put the Swift Half as a permanent feature on the other side of the stadium and not as a temporary tent set up, so we can all still enjoy sitting out on the Rec on the sunny summer days with a pint. This would also reduce any potential for empties to find their way into the river!
- The Riverside area should be kept as a retail and restaurant opportunity to attract commuters to the area.
- Keep the existing trees, but I don't see the need to plant more to hide the new stadium. Be proud of what we build and celebrate it, don't try to hide it.

Transport & Access

- I can't see a lot of room to improve what we already have got.
- Access to the stadium is restricted by the location, although I like the idea to potentially add another bridge across the river (no idea how viable it is though).

Matchday Experience

- A lot has been covered above.
- Anything that can be done to reduce queuing times at half time (toilets and bars) should be encouraged.
- Probably not the space for this, but if the space between seat rows could be increased to stop having to stand up and down to let people in and out of their seats as much would be nice!
- Allow people with tickets to come in through any entrance would be nice! I've known people to be turned away and told to walk round the other side!
- Ref link? Do we do that? If not, can we?

Community

- It is clear from the brief this stadium needs to be more than just a Rugby stadium and I support that view.
- Sell stadium tours, like they do in football, maybe include a 'meet the player' as well.
- Keep doing the family days on the Rec and the watch the 1st team train. These are all fantastic for the supporters and especially good for the kids to connect with the club.


Economic Impact

- Open the stadium up to music / concerts
- Open air theatre?

Accessibility

- Bars kept to within the Stadium and the playing field side
- Restaurants on the Riverside
- Accessibility is limited to the stadium, but there are no excuses to not ensure access within is suitable for all. They have a blank canvass and so I can't see why they couldn't cater for everyone.
- Maybe provide Ref Link for free to partially sighted supporters?
- Wheelchair supporters shouldn't be confined to the bottom row. Why not give them access to say 8-10 rows up?

I think I'll stop there!

Salmon

Adopted Player 17-18 & 16-17: Dave Attwood
Adopted Player 15-16: Matt Garvey

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 12:59

"- Not too much glass & metal - I personally find modern buildings date quickly "

I agree with this.

I would guess sinking the pitch would cause water level issues? Though it seems like a good idea if that can be countered.

The thing about the advantage of the plastic pitch is surely it reverses at the point most people don't have a real pitch? As we have the plastic pitch to train on, maybe a real pitch would be the best of both worlds?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: BathSalmon (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 13:10

It's a difficult one because a plastic / hybrid pitch would open the Rec up to more use during the year, due to greater durability.

Also what happens to the groundsmen if we get rid of grass?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 14:57

Quote:
DanWiley
I would guess sinking the pitch would cause water level issues? Though it seems like a good idea if that can be countered.
we have the ability to keep the water out, we are perfectly capable of building cellars and underground car parks on food plains.
There would be an issue in terms of where that water goes, as flood plains have a job to do. I'm sure it's sortable, but may need some inventive thinking dig a hole somewhere else on the flood plain. Or it might be a non-issue, depending on how the land is classified.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 15:23

I'm not an expert, but I think going below the river line would cause issues. If you have a cellar, below the watercourse and don't keep water (rain) out then I can't see how you can stop it flooding (without pumps etc). Mot cellars and underground carparks have roofs.

I can't see an indoor arena happening, even if we wanted one.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 16:04


Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 18:03

So have I missed something in previous documents in that we are allowed to close off the rugby pitch with a permanent East stand? If we must keep it opened out in the summer then a sunken pitch could be a bit tricky if any cricket was planned though watching a fielders pursuit of the ball to include a descent down a ladder would be funny.

Excuse my facetious comment, just wondering about the East stand being permanent. Most big stadia have dropped pitches though the grass growth is still affected by high stands.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 18:31

Quote:
B4thB4ck
So have I missed something in previous documents in that we are allowed to close off the rugby pitch with a permanent East stand? If we must keep it opened out in the summer then a sunken pitch could be a bit tricky if any cricket was planned though watching a fielders pursuit of the ball to include a descent down a ladder would be funny.
Excuse my facetious comment, just wondering about the East stand being permanent. Most big stadia have dropped pitches though the grass growth is still affected by high stands.

Article in the Chron when the Stadium project was announced in November last year

Quote:
Now the club are starting with a blank canvas and, whether it is made up of one building or several buildings in an overall composition, it would be a permanent stadium for the first time, rather than one with stands which have to be dismantled every summer due to the current

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 24/01/2018 23:44

Having read Mr CC's summary I was reminded of what I saw in Toulon which I liked which was small engraved tiles set in the walk way around the stadium each one with the name of a player and then every several small ones would be followed by a large engraved slab with the name of say Jonny Wilkinson or player of similar stature.

Also the season ticket holder had their name on each seat.........which I thought was a nice touch.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: BathSalmon (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 06:49

Wonder how much of the new capacity will be released as season tickets? There is certainly the demand for them!

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 09:31

WT in addition to the problems of water ingress related to a sunken stadium I think there would other issues.

Temperature: A sunken stadium would be a sink for cold air. Being adjacent to the river that would include cold damp air and bring with it condensation issues. this could make the playing surface very slippy, like dew on the early morning grass.

Light: The Principality stadium had big issues in the early days due to the shape of the stadium. This meant natural grass had insufficient light resulting in poor quality and recovery. By sinking the playing surface I suspect you are replicating that problem.

This would mean that a plastic/hybrid pitch would be inevitable.

Environment: The cold sink would mean that winter evening games would mean spectators at pitch level would possibly be watching in the cold and damp. Furthermore the mist seen on the river might extend to the pitch causing visibility issues.

There may well be solutions to this however, but is it worth it?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 11:00

I believe many hybrid pitches are successfully maintained to perfection by using the artificial sun lamps to keep the grass growing in the winter. This would add an annual operating cost after the initial capital investment.

Thanks for the note on the East stand CC, that possibility makes it even more exciting for the architects.

Not sure sinking the pitch a few metres would make it that much colder and certainly it could make disabled access and viewing height much better, as at Cardiff.

Of course, you need to be careful digging too deep in Bath, never know where you will end up :-)

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 12:25

@Shipwrecked - the cold sink is a decent point, though I'm not sure how much 1-2m would make (given that it would be open to the elements, as opposed to a cave). I just don't know on that.

As for the health of the grass and the MillStad - that's more to do with having a roof and being 100% enclosed, meaning that not enough light reached the pitch to keep the grass healthy (there are ways around this, like using a clear roof); and that the grass was stored of-site and brought in on pallets; so the grass was unconnected chunks of 10 sq ft sitting on a foundation of 3" of soil; instead of a coherent mass of 12000 sq ft sitting on a foundation of 12" of soil (then sand, then gravel for drainage).

Whether it's worth it or not, I couldn't possibly comment - it would depnd on the cost, how deep they wanted to go, how big the problems actually are, the viability of the solutions, and how beneficial the sinking of the pitch ends up. For now, I just think it's an idea worth considering.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 12:54

I actually though that you meant lowering the pitch more than 1-2m since I thought the idea was to lower the stand height. I sort of imagined an amphitheatre but perhaps I got carried away with the Bath Roman thing. If it were marginal the light issue is probably negligible.

Of course we could always counteract the cold sink with a hypocaust system!

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 13:46

It's just a thought about a way to reduce the ultimate height of the stands without compromise their rake and viewing angles etc; so if planning limits the Riverside elevation to say 4m height, buying an extra 2 by sinking the pitch would make a big difference to the practicalities of that stand. It would also give us more room to play with elsewhere, which could only be a good thing.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 14:26

All good points which I will submit to the Stadium Group as part of the COML input.

Any more ideas gratefully accepted.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 18:24

I have always been very keen on the sinking the ground notion.

As a sort of example at our office in Laura Place you come in the front door at Ground level go down a flight of stairs to the "basement" and then enter our offices and at the back the windows are on the first floor looking down on to some gardens.

This of course would be the inverse of that but I am with Which T as the extra say 2 metres would/could make all of the difference.

The stadium would not be overpowering from Jubilee Gardens and would in time, inevitably be nicknamed the Tardis as it would be much bigger on the inside than seems apparent from the outside..........if you know what I mean!

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 25/01/2018 21:42

When you say ground level, do you mean Street level? Which often in bath is built up a level above the ground.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: WestonDave (IP Logged)
Date: 26/01/2018 16:46

Can I add one more request - this may now be a requirement in building standards for a venue of this size but just in case its not...

Would be great for inclusivity if we could incorporate a "Changing Places" toilet. For those not familiar with this concept its like a disabled toilet on steroids so it has all the hoists and adult capacity changing facilities to enable adults who need that sort of care to receive it without having to lie on a urine soaked floor. They are gradually becoming more common (there is one by the railway station in Bath I believe) but there is growing pressure on sports venues to provide these so its probably easier to put it in now as part of the design process.

Changing Places campaign

Appreciate its a bit niche and not something I personally know anyone that needs but rugby should be open to all.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2018 15:42

Shelves in the loos! How did I forget this?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: BathSalmon (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2018 16:03

Quote:
Rawce
Shelves in the loos! How did I forget this?

For your pint glass?

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2018 18:00

Quote:
BathSalmon
Quote:
Rawce
Shelves in the loos! How did I forget this?

For your pint glass?
mirror and lipstick
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2018 19:39

All of the above.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 13:33

[www.bathchronicle.co.uk] Letter from Barry Pollen

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 13:57

Quote:
Mike the Taxi
http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/letter-rec-architects-need-right-1129375 Letter from Barry Pollen
Has he got a bee in his bonnet?
More to the point, he questions Grimshaw's experience with sports stadiums... Like Wimbledon, or that Irish race track...

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 17:31

BUT we are not building a typical stadium! So I would argue that an architect who is not a stadium expert is more likely to design something that has the wow factor required in the centre of Bath along with the sporting needs of the club and sympathetic to the area.

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Boldangrey (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 17:45

I'm still worried about the gender neutral toilets.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 17:51

Quote:
Boldangrey
I'm still worried about the gender neutral toilets.

Doesn't Weston Dave's Changing Places cover that.....! winking smiley

http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7Mwi7pLXeM89TY2KFdDQ-UUDGSv1FKNdhYdrW-koAuRN3tsqCPfE3onFxuO-3cZ0057Tom1uJai3vjkz3dvY_Q/1998%20Euro%20Champs.jpg http://zdgzqa.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pFul9UAV5zEXOzeRc1kmmlgDKXTYTIlTnGoQzYelH6KzdCeU-exN0IGo74QN2OGvlSoEiVjzAESvHx9BFlBsNFA/Bath%202008.jpg

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Boldangrey (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2018 17:53

Depends on the meaning of 'changing places'!

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Eastbath (IP Logged)
Date: 30/01/2018 10:32

It sounds obvious but can we make sure that there is much improved access to and from the seating areas.
One reason folk leave the East stand early is if you are anywhere near the back that it takes 15mins to get out once the whistle has been blown.
I assume its passed all elf n safety checks/fire regs but those in the the top rows often wonder what would happen if we needed to get out in an emergency. It would take some time.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 30/01/2018 12:05

They'd open up on to the pitch I assume.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 30/01/2018 14:00

I think it might be quite a bit more than £40-50 million. 70 or more, if we are planning something special.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: BathPatriot (IP Logged)
Date: 31/01/2018 19:58

I was talking to someone who lives near the Rec recently and she was truly horrified at the prospect of Bath Rugby building a stadium. I tried to calm her nerves by telling her that the building would be a beautiful structure and a real improvement of what is there at the moment. She was of the view that Mr Gilson and his minions would never let this happen, or at least this is what she has been told . Sad.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 19/02/2018 15:27

How about this for an idea? The landing area for the Winter Olympics ski jumping doubles as a football stadium in the winter:-

[www.google.co.uk]

I am sure we could get it past the planners and locals, a dry ski slope at one end would be just the job. On match days you could literally roll out of the pub, down the slope to your seat.

Re: Stadium Development
Posted by: Boldangrey (IP Logged)
Date: 19/02/2018 20:37

The Holmenkollen ski jump in Oslo has a large pleasure lake in the landing zone in the summer.
When we did the tourist summer trip to the top I had the greatest difficulty explaining to my sons that the jumpers wouldn’t go through the ice!

[upload.wikimedia.org]

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