"Super Region?" No thanks
Whats he up to?
By cardiffsteve
January 2 2013
Its probably best not to take notice of every single Welsh rugby rumour. Even the “definite, strong rumours” often turn out to be bollocks (I'm still waiting for Graham Henry to take over as coach and John Smart has been all set to become our new chairman for at least 9 years now...) but sometimes – i.e. when directors of regions begin throwing allegations around in public – it might be best to start taking notice and have a think about what it might mean....
The gist of this not altogether substantiated claim is that the WRU see a solution to the current dispute in making two regions (namely ourselves and the Turks) into “Super Regions” which would receive a much greater chunk of central funding than the Ospreys and NGD. Its not hard to see why this arrangement might appeal to our board. If you're offered a whacking great big pile of money you generally listen. But what would be the costs? First of all, the money would undoubtedly be offered in return for even greater control of our players, and perhaps WRU input into other aspects of Cardiff Blues business. Do we really want or need this?
Personally I think we badly need less union interference, not more. Secondly, is this not a PR disaster waiting to happen? Do we really want to be known as one of the sellout teams that took the WRU's coin, knowing it would quite possibly lead to the collapse of one or both of the Ospreys and NGD? Is this really how you broaden your supporter base? If it came to that, it would surely leave a sour taste in the mouth of all our supporters. Personally, I'd put such a course of action alongside the stand we took against the union in 1998 and feel more than a little ashamed at how far we've fallen. In my opinion, the way we'll get through this stand off with the union and emerge with a healthier domestic game is for the four professional sides to stand together.
We mustn't allow the union to play divide and rule – I hope we aren't.
EDIT: Great article CardiffSteve, many thanks for this. For everyone else, more on this story to follow shortly.
"Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: theArmsPark.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 02/01/2013 17:10
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Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: wales606 (IP Logged)
Date: 03/01/2013 13:56
If we were consistently the most successful region then this might at least seem fair, but the talk of downgrading the O's funding seems ridiculous as they are really our only region that can compete physically at the moment.
Picking favorites is going to create a LOT of bad felling in whoever isn't picked and a lot of people still haven't gotten past regionalisation in the first place, or gotten over the demise of the warriors.
Downgrading the O's status would backfire big time, they might get away with making the Dragons a "development region" and decreasing their funding (ala Connacht) but that is still going to alienate Gwent.
While I wouldn't be against the Blues getting more money + Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, AWJ, Hibbard, Biggar etc it is not really a practical solution
Picking favorites is going to create a LOT of bad felling in whoever isn't picked and a lot of people still haven't gotten past regionalisation in the first place, or gotten over the demise of the warriors.
Downgrading the O's status would backfire big time, they might get away with making the Dragons a "development region" and decreasing their funding (ala Connacht) but that is still going to alienate Gwent.
While I wouldn't be against the Blues getting more money + Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, AWJ, Hibbard, Biggar etc it is not really a practical solution
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 03/01/2013 14:25
Yes two super regions is certainly not the answer
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: ATTR (IP Logged)
Date: 03/01/2013 21:08
Some good points there.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: cardiffstu (IP Logged)
Date: 03/01/2013 22:55
Wales cannot sustain four competitive regions. By competitive, I mean capable of reaching the latter stages of the HCup and dare I say it, winning it.
The formation of "regions" was a deep and cutting blow for many in Welsh rugby, something that many have never recovered from and evidenced by the dwindling spectator numbers. As hard as it is to swallow, it appears that the cut wasn't deep enough.
There's an element of entitlement among many that they somehow deserve professional rugby when economics indicate its unaffordable in the current structure.
A joke of a league, away fixtures that are unappealing and regional squads bereft of their "star" players for much of the season.
From the Rugby Paper report, it appears the WRU have been up to their usual behind the scenes negotiations and I believe Lewis has been quoted as saying his preference is for 2+2 or 3+1, but he is also angling for full control with WRU appointments to the regional boards - this in effect strips the clubs/regions of any identity.
Whilst I agree there is a need for some solidarity between the regions, this shouldn't be at the expense of financial reality. Something has to give sooner rather than later but the big issue is how that is achieved without further disenfranchisement of the rugby public.
The formation of "regions" was a deep and cutting blow for many in Welsh rugby, something that many have never recovered from and evidenced by the dwindling spectator numbers. As hard as it is to swallow, it appears that the cut wasn't deep enough.
There's an element of entitlement among many that they somehow deserve professional rugby when economics indicate its unaffordable in the current structure.
A joke of a league, away fixtures that are unappealing and regional squads bereft of their "star" players for much of the season.
From the Rugby Paper report, it appears the WRU have been up to their usual behind the scenes negotiations and I believe Lewis has been quoted as saying his preference is for 2+2 or 3+1, but he is also angling for full control with WRU appointments to the regional boards - this in effect strips the clubs/regions of any identity.
Whilst I agree there is a need for some solidarity between the regions, this shouldn't be at the expense of financial reality. Something has to give sooner rather than later but the big issue is how that is achieved without further disenfranchisement of the rugby public.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: BlueButtyBoy (IP Logged)
Date: 04/01/2013 19:42
I would be in favour of three regions, north, east and west west playing in only the Rabo12 and Heineken Cup avoiding the international tournaments (6N & AI's)
Then, beefing up the Premiership by making them feeder clubs for the 'super-regions' and getting them to play in an enhanced Britain & Ireland tournament and Amlin Cup.
Then, beefing up the Premiership by making them feeder clubs for the 'super-regions' and getting them to play in an enhanced Britain & Ireland tournament and Amlin Cup.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 07/01/2013 09:17
Yes they CAN sustain 4 regions. There is enough talent in Wales (apart at the moment from at prop and 2nd row clearly!) and the money is being generated. As Jiffy said on Scrum V yesterday - it just needs to be distributed more by the WRFU. For a start the millions which will be saved on the pitch (and constant relaying of new pitches) at the Mill will be very handy for the regions once the 4G surface gets put in (assuming it does).
You can't just look at the here and now - remember how England talked about pulling out of the Six Nations because it was getting too easy for them ........ It's a long subject but at the start of the Pro era people would rightly say that Wales had a FAR better ability to support 4 pro clubs than Ireland and yet look at the huge growth in support for the game over there. OK their regions were 'in place' and meant something to the local population etc etc but .......... Must get on and work but don't believe the spin, Wales can and must support 4 regions. One thign si for sure and that is that the number of Dragons fans who woudl staret to come to the CAP to watch the wealthier Cardiuff Blues could be counted on one hand - and that will be the case with Os fans supporting Scarlets + in fact suddenly we've lost 4 Welsh derbies a year and interest and focus on the Pro 12 in Wales will be even less than it is now.
As for a side in North Wales - IMO the support for the game in big numbers is not in the North and it ouwld become a Zebre very quickly.
You can't just look at the here and now - remember how England talked about pulling out of the Six Nations because it was getting too easy for them ........ It's a long subject but at the start of the Pro era people would rightly say that Wales had a FAR better ability to support 4 pro clubs than Ireland and yet look at the huge growth in support for the game over there. OK their regions were 'in place' and meant something to the local population etc etc but .......... Must get on and work but don't believe the spin, Wales can and must support 4 regions. One thign si for sure and that is that the number of Dragons fans who woudl staret to come to the CAP to watch the wealthier Cardiuff Blues could be counted on one hand - and that will be the case with Os fans supporting Scarlets + in fact suddenly we've lost 4 Welsh derbies a year and interest and focus on the Pro 12 in Wales will be even less than it is now.
As for a side in North Wales - IMO the support for the game in big numbers is not in the North and it ouwld become a Zebre very quickly.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: timmyd (IP Logged)
Date: 07/01/2013 18:38
hi again lads. just logged on to see the reaction to your win in cork and saw this. ive seen it on scarlets forum already.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: timmyd (IP Logged)
Date: 07/01/2013 18:40
hi again lads. just logged on to see the reaction to your win in cork and saw this. ive seen it on scarlets forum already.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: cardiffsteve (IP Logged)
Date: 11/01/2013 13:28
Quote:timmyd
hi again lads. just logged on to see the reaction to your win in cork and saw this. ive seen it on scarlets forum already.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
Well, for starters your numbers are all over the place mate. Sorry.
Theres also the simple fact that the WRU have no intention of increasing funding, let alone paying for central contracts.
The main thing you're missing is that this isnt really a rugby issue. Its politics and the same tiresome power games from the WRU.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:11:13:35:59 by cardiffsteve.
Re: "Super Region?" No thanks
Posted by: theArmsPark.co.uk Admin (IP Logged)
Date: 13/01/2013 11:17
Quote:timmyd
hi again lads. just logged on to see the reaction to your win in cork and saw this. ive seen it on scarlets forum already.
as a munster fan ive followed the hec negotiations and now this with interest as it affects everyone potentially.
my opinion is that for the last few years the wru have had the best of both worlds in that they didnt have to pay their international players for their services but those same players were rarely available for the regions. this was effectivelly central contracting on the cheap. too cheap as it turned out as the better players moved on for more money.
the solution is imo to force the wru to pay these players what they are worth and keep them in the regions. simple.
afaik wru have said that they have made 15m available for these super regions. i also believe that they currently fund the regions to the region of 3m each which adds up to 12m. 20-24 centrally contracted players would cost an additional 5-6m bringing the total of 17/18m. as noone reveals its hand fully at this stage of talks that has to be within their spending power.
that would provide the regions with the breathing room within their salary cap to have better quality squads.3.5m between 32 players is a lot better than between 38.
i see comments about losing control. you dont have it anyway. how often do you see warburton, roberts etc now and you pay them. he who pays the piper calls the tune at least to a certain extent.
irish centrally contracted players play 26 games in reg season and playoffs if applicable. that adds up in a normal season to 10 internationals, 6 hec min, 6 irish derbys and a few others in rabo. thats a very simplistic example of how it breaks down.
its not perfect but it works okay and it helps keep our provinces on top.
Hi Timmyd,
of course, the big difference in Ireland is the tax rebate for sportsmen/entertainers who spend their entire careers earning in Ireland. That's a massive incentive to stay with your province, rather than go abroad.
Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury here and therefore there is currently no reason to stay in Wales. The WRU has to do more, but in truth, doesn't want to. They want more control of the regions, so are quite happy biding their time until we give in and accept we can't do it without them.
In short; it's a mess.
Admin of theArmsPark.co.uk,
Make Noise and You Will Be Heard!
