Saints v Bordeaux 24th May 2025 - Teams Up

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:30:08:03:27 by Saint Ted.

Ooh nice! Great to see the 50:50s from last week made it! Even better to have Ollie on the bench!

Wow. Can’t complain at that at all. Apart from Augustus that’s a really strong squad. Bring it on. Travelling from Milton Keynes via Birmingham tomorrow. Gonna be an exciting journey!

We're only actually down 1 regular starter in the 15 which is a miricle after this season, A bit suprised to see Prowse over Munga too

Good to see George Furbank returning from injury.
Langdon, Temo, Coles and Ramm all passed fit to start after last week and Sleightholme back from injury and on the bench. James back from Head injuries protocols as well.

Very pleased to see so many players returning/recovering from injuries in time, well done to the medical team!

What a season for Ed Prowse, to change positions and finish on the bench in a European cup final is impressive. To be ranked above Munga and CHH as well.

Also very chuffed that Dingwall has retained the captains arm band. After Leinster and then Sarries that’s fully deserved despite Furbanks return. Will we see the return of co-captains next season I wonder.

That will do very nicely !

That’s a massive, massive boost. Furbs, Sleightholme and James all fit to return and all of the injury worries from last week are sufficiently fit to play: Langdon, Coles, Temo and Ramm. The conditioning team have worked wonders.

We are underdogs. The bookies have Bordeaux as favourites. All 4 Telegraph pundits have Bordeaux winning. So the pressure is on Bordeaux and off our lads.

I’d far prefer to be playing Bordeaux than Toulouse. Bordeaux have never won the European Cup nor Top 14 and have bottled previous knock-outs. There will be more Saints supporters in the millennium stadium and we need to make our voice heard, particularly on refereeing decisions. They’ve lost 2 of their last four games whilst we are hitting some good form.

Why not us? David v Goliath. COYS!!!!!

Great to see - just hope that Furbs and Sleights aren't too much of a roll of the dice, if Furbs takes a knock early that's Ramm to FB which is fine but Sleights on and needing to hold up for a whole game.

Bordeaux's level depends a lot on Jallibert's. But he is sometimes inconsistent, as in the French national team for example. For their part, they have particularly targeted the rucks, because they fear your ball recovery.

ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter

Quote:

LeicesterSaint
Great to see - just hope that Furbs and Sleights aren't too much of a roll of the dice, if Furbs takes a knock early that's Ramm to FB which is fine but Sleights on and needing to hold up for a whole game.

Lichfield could come on and save Sleightholme for later

Quote:

LeicesterSaint
Great to see - just hope that Furbs and Sleights aren't too much of a roll of the dice, if Furbs takes a knock early that's Ramm to FB which is fine but Sleights on and needing to hold up for a whole game.

You'd go with Litchfield in that scenario, surely, and look to bring Sleightholme on later in the match?

Fingers crossed that the injury returns are 100% . 🤞 that there are no stupid yellow or red cards either.

Very good point on Litchfield - I was thinking of him as a centre. Let's hope it doesn't matter anyway as Furbs is fit and firing and raring to go!

Quote:

Le marseillais
Bordeaux's level depends a lot on Jallibert's. But he is sometimes inconsistent, as in the French national team for example. For their part, they have particularly targeted the rucks, because they fear your ball recovery.

They have some excellent jacklers, our accuracy at ruck time needs to be spot on, and we will need to not run too far from our support.

Well, that line up is better than I hoped for. Virtually full strength!

Put our game on the pitch, counter Bordeaux's strengths, keep on the right side of the ref and TMO and victory is possible.

We beat Leinster, we should fear no one.

The Shoe Army need to get behind our boys from the warm up onwards and MAKE SOME NOISE!!!!

COYS.

I wonder whether Prowse could develop a special niche for himself as a specialist bench 2nd row.

Bordeaux team 15. Buros ; 14. Penaud, 13. Depoortere, 12. Moefana, 11. Bielle-Biarrey ; 10. Jalibert, 9. Lucu (cap.) ; 7. Petti, 8. Samu, 6. Diaby ; 5. Cazeaux, 4. Coleman ; 3. Falatea, 2. Lamothe, 1. Poirot.

Remplaçants : 16. Sa, 17. Boniface, 18. Tameifuna, 19. Bochaton, 20. Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Gazzotti, 22. van Rensburg, 23. Retière.

When I do a head to head on the teams listed above, even trying to discount my Saints bias, I don’t actually think they have a much better 23 than us?…

I am absolutely buzzing for tomorrow - COYS!!!

Don't leave a single inch free for Bielle Biarrey...

ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter

Quote:

Londonsaint
I wonder whether Prowse could develop a special niche for himself as a specialist bench 2nd row.

Does he also qualify as a trained prop still?

Massive boost for all the guys who went off last week go come through fit to play and to see Furbs and Sleights back. We should have a really big numerical advantage in the stadium - we have to lift the team and make a lot of noise from warmup onwards. Let the team know how proud the town and county are of getting to this final, hugely against the odds and written off by most pundits and the bookies. COYS, SHOE ARMY!!!

Good luck

Starting to feel nervous already

Whatever the result
Just have to feel proud of this team

So many in the team have worked their way through the academy
If we win
What a recognition for the whole club

Bring it on

It could be of course that they are taking a risk with both Biarrey and Penaud !

Really pleasing selection with the lads back! Pumped now. I can see Penaud being a risky selection for them.

Also think we can put some high balls on the two wingers and win the aerial battle. We are certainly underdogs, and that’s just how we like it.

Talking of risks furbank, sleightholme for us penaud for them. Is the biggest risk of all them not having a recognised 9 replacement? They have gone 6 2 and the bench options are winger/fullback and a centre. Unless retiere can play 9?? Anybody know?

Retiere stats

Winger : 103 times ( Left Wing 45%, Right Wing 32% )
Fullback : 18 times ( Fullback 14% )
Scrum-Half : 11 times ( Scrum Half 8% )
Center : 1 times ( Outside Centre 1% )

1/10th of his career there

I’m at bearded theory, so hopefully by the time Iggy Pop is on, we’ll be kings of Europe!
Jealous of my friends who are going to Cardiff
Internet/phone signal here is pants, but finger and toes crossed for the lads to bring it home

Good luck from Exeter! Delighted to see that the injuries arent as serious as first feared. Its going to be a magnificent contest but I think that you've got enough for the title. 🍻

Quote:

Smooothsides
We're only actually down 1 regular starter in the 15 which is a miricle after this season, A bit suprised to see Prowse over Munga too

I'd class Augustus and Pearson both as regular starters, either one of whom would free Coles for the second row.

Its not so much the starters that is the issue. For me, the issue is having to field 3rd or 4th choice players from the bench.

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Santiago

Quote:

Smooothsides
We're only actually down 1 regular starter in the 15 which is a miricle after this season, A bit suprised to see Prowse over Munga too

I'd class Augustus and Pearson both as regular starters, either one of whom would free Coles for the second row.

I think “regular starter” means more “first choice” in this context

First choice backrow would be 6 Kemeny 7 Pollock 8 Augustus.

Pearson or Graham on the bench

But, yes, if Pearson was available he would start at 7 and Kemeny at 6.

Our line out should be pretty strong with 4 jumpers surely?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:23:21:49:56 by Im.

Losing Ramm & then Furbank so early could cause issues later in the game.

Saints 7 UBB 5

7 - 12 !

10 - 12

Fin penalty just!!

This currently reminds me of Leinster game last season, Saints haven’t settled, obviously not helped by two early injuries!

10 - 15

13 - 15

HT can’t come soon enough!!

Temo fails HIA.

Freeman yellow.

Penaud 2nd try

13 - 20!

Coles 2nd try.

20 - 20 HT

Biggest HT talk of Dowson’s career!

Watching first half on fast forward.
How did Coles get that try down? Looked held up, then looked stripped, but regathered and dotted down!
Saints lucky that Bordeaux scored early, or they'd have seen yellow for not retreating the 10m.
Furbank is absolutely a rugby incident. He's on the floor, the onus is on him to stay down in that situation, but he had no real way of knowing that he was in that situation. You could argue dangerous play for both players, but only GF is "out of the game".
That knock-on by Fin when the ball goes 2m backwards...
Blue6 should have been a red card. Tackle was forceful, and with no attempt to wrap was always illegal, so no mitigation, so hit to head = red. Have the refs been instructed not to show red cards this weekend?
Pollock definitely was offside, but replay made it look way closer than real time. I prefer ref not to blow the whistle there, and let TMO sort it out once the footrace is won - whoever wins it.
Freeman - if you don't want to see yellow, don't commit to a blatant, cynical and potentially dangerous play.
Jalibert is having one of those games where he looks the best FH in the world.
Coles with a brace! How the hell is it all-level at HT?

Right, time to rejoin the wedding drinking (alcohol free )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:24:15:44:50 by Which Tyler.

Quote:

tigersimon
Biggest HT talk of Dowson’s career!

Don’t know about the players

But I’m frazzled after that half

Have to see the wife for a strong half time talk

We are being hammered down the left wing. They need to sort that out at half time

Yellow card for Prowse

13 men v 15

20 - 23

20 - 28

FT 20-28

Saints gave it everything but the story of your season - Injuries!!

Be proud that was some performance from the 23!

Bad luck Saints from a Tigers fan thought you gave a very good account of yourselves considering the disruption from early injuries. Your backs usually get the plaudits but thought your forwards really fronted up especially in the scrums.

As said by a few injuries during the season and disruption in the first half however some questionable forward passes in the first half and THE ref !!

Ultimately not enough depth or physicality in the squad!

Brave, lots of heart but not good enough.

I’ve said all season we’re under powered in the forwards and we got out muscled today. Sad, as these opportunities don’t come along very often!!

Lots to review for next season! Away form for starters!

Very brave performance full of passion and heart and effort. Never gave up. Better team won which had more quality on the day.

Thank you Saints

Another fantastic day out for supporters

Not the result we wanted
But some amazing spirit

Very proud of the boys great performance against the odds. Think we used up our good fortune last week

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Hollywood JK
Ultimately not enough depth or physicality in the squad!
Brave, lots of heart but not good enough.

I’ve said all season we’re under powered in the forwards and we got out muscled today. Sad, as these opportunities don’t come along very often!!

Lots to review for next season! Away form for starters!

Ok

A very competitive game which further disproves the English clubs can’t compete line trotted out by the we want to spend more brigade.
The loss of Augustus before and Ramm and Furbank early had a big impact.
Beaten by the better team on the day but not disgraced.

Great effort. Unfortunately won't be in that position very often. Will challenge prem again next year

Hard luck Saints. Competitive throughout and troubled Bordeaux, but injuries early and some ill discipline later undid you.

PG

Well done lads, someone's got to win, someone's got to lose. Lots of ifs and buts but BB were a tough match today.

Hi all, unfortunately just woken up from my illness so didn't see the match but judging by what I have read we gave it our all and only lost by 8, not the 20+ that was predicted by others. I predicted a win but my heart said lose, not because of the guys but because of past luck, silly I know but most of the time we seem to lose the BIG one.
Considering the season we have had with injuries I am very proud of the whole squad, yes our premiership form was poor but again that's down to the injuries and calls ups. We have shown Europe what we can do on a good day and to finish runners up against a strong opponent with a squad twice the size of ours the team should hold their heads up high and be very proud of what they have achieved like we are of them.
Our turn will come again I'm sure, we just need to build on this season next season and hopefully stay injury free then we will shut up those doubters who have been writing us off all this season.

WELL DONE LADS, YOU SHOULD BE VERY PROUD LIKE I AM OF YOU.

With the disruption of the early injuries, we never seemed to refocus in attack.
Then with Bordeaux's budget being reportedly around 34 million euros. Ours is just under 8 million euros. We held our own. Very proud of the team

Quote:

mkersyshull
With the disruption of the early injuries, we never seemed to refocus in attack.
Then with Bordeaux's budget being reportedly around 34 million euros. Ours is just under 8 million euros. We held our own. Very proud of the team

The last reports show Bordeaux have a turn over of 40 million euros and spend 11 million euros on players

A good effort but too many things went against us. They shackled Henry very well. I think the ref should be shackled.. and thrown in the Nene! On a train home via Birmingham. The Saints special.

Think it was just one of those days where the 50/50s went the other way.

For instance, Prowses’s yellow card was only just a yellow. The 12 stepped and accelerated into the contact. Whereas the Bordeaux 6 got a yellow that was only just not a red. So the sanction for both, but in reality only a very fine margin away from being just a pen against saints and a red for Bordeaux.

I thought the front row were incredible to match what Bordeaux started with and brought off the bench.

We took 3 when their 6 was off for the yellow and we were about 10m in the middle of the pitch, when I feel we should have given Henry the chance to carry from the base of the scrum.

The score to even it up at 20-20 was also so impressive. Starting form the pen that Davidson won. The attitude to kick for the lineout and go for the try rather than just ending the half only one score behind.

Ultimately, not converting when 2 meters out with about 8/9 minutes to go was where the game was lost. A one point game with 7 minutes to go completely changes the mentality of both sides.

A final of what ifs sadly

Have to take this into the next season of the back of the Lions and England tours. We can afford to lose a couple of close games because our internationals aren’t available. Every game is a cup final, so that at the business end of the season we have the luxury of choosing when and how to play our best players.

They are a great group of lads in a fantastic set up. A fair few of them will have the chance to go for big money else where over the next couple of seasons. The club needs to keep the intangible benefits of playing for Saints strong. They are mates, the supporters are amongst the best, the coaches want them to play rugby that is fun to play and also improve every player, the pitch is a belter and now the club has the experience of winning the prem by playing badly and losing the euro final after playing well. They have won in Dublin, Joburg and Limerick.

They really are a special group of players at a special cllub that at this moment in time is only a fine margin away from serious success.

The issue is money, but then a wealthy benefactor isn’t going to just come in a solve the issue for Saints. And even is they did, Saints has been built on working without a huge budget. That restraint has developed the ways, methods and ethos in the club to achieve success that money can by. To suddenly add a few millions £ of players to the squad won’t necessarily produce success.

As long as we don’t lose the players we have then we can do it…. That will be a tough challenge

Hi All,
New poster, long time lurker.
I thought the whole team were great, unfortunately unsettled by early injuries and some odd reffing decisions.
As in Dublin they showed amazing heart and fought to the end. A great team with huge potential.
I feel privileged and proud to be a Saints supporter today an amazing club with a great group of supporters.
Looking forward to next season.

Extremely proud of the lads. Not only how they hung in there after every (significant) obstacle but how they conducted themselves afterwards. They were obviously devastated but spoke well for the cameras, didn’t moan and clapped the Bordeaux players.
IMHO they had plenty of justification to have a moan after some horrendous officiating and some terrible bad luck but they have far more class than I do (ranting at the tv for around 75 minutes of the match).
Something that really disappoints me though is the online gloating and hate for Pollock after the match. Too many so-called rugby fans are sticking the knife in and some news reports are saying he had a ‘quiet’ game although the Telegraph reports that he made ‘the most metres by any forward (39), the most carries by a forward (10), the joint-second-most tackles (14) and the most turnovers won (2)’! Most disturbingly he was apparently set upon after the final whistle by 3 UBB players and hit in the throat. None of this reflects well on our fine sport.
Anyway I’m off to have a lie-down. I will look forward to seeing what this amazing bunch of players can do next season….

Great show again this week Saints. You took the game to the favourite and if it wasn't for the injuries, it could have been a classic.

A little post to try and process the grief after a second loss in Cardiff.

1. Well done BB. Stronger team overall, half backs were immense as were wide players. How can France not select Jalibert?
2. Point 1 was a lot down to ruck speed, which was best I’ve seen all season, credit to their forwards and really that was where the game was won.
3. All that said, we really didn’t get the breaks today. We needed everyone fit, esp Juarno, Peason and Odendal, let alone what then happened in game. Injuries in game also went against us (reckless knee to Furbs?), bouncing ball never went our way, ref calls against us (two key knock on calls etc). Thought ref was poor. I don’t raise that as the reason we lost, rather we needed all the breaks to get close and we got next to nothing in terms of rub of green.
4. An extra tinge of sadness when you see squad depths and squad costs of the French boys (and you see Bath last night) and I’m sad for how many chances we’ll get for a euro win like tonight. I really hoped we’d win a second star as I worry about when we’ll be back. Chatitng to the French fans in the pub they said rugby growth in France is exponential, growing faster than footie, so they are only going to get stronger and richer. Not sure how we compete (in a financially sustainable way). Expand tha Garden/? We have the fan base.

COYS. Dublin was the greatest day as a sports fan.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:05:24:21:58:01 by Bucksaint .

Got back to the hotel in Cardiff a couple of hours ago, and I am exhausted. I don't want to re-hash what has already been written, so I will just say the physicality was extreme and it was a tough go. And although I thought UBB were a bit stronger, it looked to me that Manny and Tarek were vety good against the big UBB reserve prop.

To me Saints showed what they are cxapable of and they can play with anyone. Glad Furbank gave it a go, though getting kicked in the head was not in the plan. I was pleasantly surprised to see Sleights in the 23 but more so that he went about 75 minutes in his return. That was certainly not in the plan. Any news about Ramm - such a terrific player.

Finally, I thought both teams had a case of nerves resulting in so mant knocks and slopy pens. The second half - after Pollock's try was chalked off - settled into an old fashioned war of attrition and was so tight the rest of the way.

Proud they are my (our) guys. I brought two of my adult kids and they are both sleeping now....

Although I wanted Saints to win I thought the referee was very good, he had a lot to deal with from both sides. Furbank’s injury wasn’t caused by recklessness in my opinion just unfortunate timing.
A good game to watch but the better team on the day won.

Early injuries caused us so many injuries along with Temo, which meant that second half we ran out of steam. So proud of the guys fighting against adversity and even then on around 68-69 mins we had the chance just under the posts.

Better team won, Jalibert looked class when playing rugby and Lucu had the pack to provide him a platform.

Sorry, this is an however part, the celebrations straight after the final whistle rankle me a bit. I see Dows wants them looked into as it was uncalled for, Pollock is taking some online stuff and all I saw was him defend a teammate before the Begles subs weighed in. Left a bad taste after a good day and game.

First of all well done to UBB. Their fans near us in the saints end were good value. The joy on the faces of the group of twenty something Bordeaux lads in front of me when they won was worth seeing. Quote of the day was UBB fan to me “I don’t understand why we don’t kick the penalties”. Me “because you’re French”. UBB “ah yes, this is correct. I had forgotten.”
I felt we were on the wrong end of some 14 pointer decisions which went from one end to another. Saints didn’t really click but given the “policing” or lack it it on offside hardly surprising. BBC headline is Bordeaux bulldoze Saints. At 28-20? I don’t think so. Some very poor social media stuff on Mitchell and Pollock. I find it very odd how when talent comes along the trolls can’t wait to pile in.
The European journey has been a joy including by far the best sporting day of my life in Dublin. Thanks to the whole group and felllow supporters for the adventure!

Brilliant effort by a very tight group.
It had echos of last Cardiff HC final, injuries and fatigue took their toll.

Always proud to follow Saints, even more so yesterday.

Those muppets including the headline writers on The Rugby Paper need to read Mike Brown’s retirement letter!

Rather than celebrating the game to come up with a headline of ‘Bordeaux accused of Pollock Vendetta’ is totally crass.

If you can’t find something positive to say about yesterday’s game then Foxtrot Oscar!!

Charlie Morgan, Telegraph 👏, on Social Media is defending Pollock and describing what he saw which was Pollock protecting his team mates, trying to break up squabbles, including maybe Curtis overreacting before becoming involved with 3 members of the Bordeaux bench! Charlie thinks the main incident with Pollock’s neck happened before the TV cameras picked it up!

Although the front page headline in The Rugby Paper is something one would normally expect from a red-top tabloid Adam Hathaway’s match report inside is really worth a read.

It was a very tough game to watch after the first few minutes. We started so well but those two quick injuries took all our hard earned momentum. I do wonder if the officiating team had given the whistle to the wrong man as the TMO seemed to be the one with the most involvement! And, this all played into the hands of UBB as their heavier forwards had more breaks in play to catch their breath than Saints would have wanted. In the end that probably made the difference, we couldn’t get any momentum and apply sustained pressure to force openings. UBB were very good and managed the second period very well. I did think they enjoyed the better of the officiating lottery but sometimes you make your own luck.
Desperately disappointed for Saints and Dowse in particular who I expect was hoping to erase memories of the Leinster final defeat. The only positive is that the Saints core team is so young they have time on their side to come again.

I thought, second half in particular, they strangled us at the breakdown
Even more evident when replacements came on

Win the breakdown win the game

Sure the coaches will look at that and we will be a better side because of it

I thought it was a great spectacle for the neutral and huge credit to Saints for the way they performed especially given some early injuries.

Both Amashukeli and the TMO were superb and contributed to a brilliantly refereed game.

Ultimately you fell short but it was a magnificent achievement to get there and your win over Leinster was one of the best performances I have seen by a Prem team in Europe for many years.

Good luck for next season and I hope those that took knocks recover soon.

Quote:

Push Over
Brilliant effort by a very tight group.
It had echos of last Cardiff HC final, injuries and fatigue took their toll.

Always proud to follow Saints, even more so yesterday.

Agreed, very proud of that effort - it is a brilliant achievement for this side to be in the EC final and push Bordeaux, with all the injuries and disruption we have had this season. Dublin was pure magic.

If we had had Furbs and Ramm fit and the likes of Pearson, Graham, R Smith and Hendy to unload from the bench I feel we would have had a very good chance of winning. If only...

Quote:

Deesaint
I thought, second half in particular, they strangled us at the breakdown
Even more evident when replacements came on

Win the breakdown win the game

Sure the coaches will look at that and we will be a better side because of it

I think the bench was weakened before the end of the first half, by Furbs. Ramm, and Mayanavanua having to leave the pitch. Our bench was simply not good enough.

Money talks.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Both Amashukeli and the TMO were superb and contributed to a brilliantly refereed game.

I'm not sure any game with a cynical deliberate knock-on given as penalty-only can be described as 'brilliantly refereed'... That would've led to a 7-8 minute period with a 2 man advantage.

That wasn't the only card Bordeaux swerved either. The head contact on Lockett needed looking at and it's commonplace for for tackles within 10m of quick taps to result in yellow. They were extremely quick to discuss the Furbank incident as a rugby incident. I think plenty of officials would've looked it more closely and considered a sanction for recklessness.

I don't think the ref was as terrible as some have said, but it wasn't a good performance either. There were an usually high number of corrected decisions as a result of TMO intervention.

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Longers

Quote:

Deesaint
I thought, second half in particular, they strangled us at the breakdown
Even more evident when replacements came on

Win the breakdown win the game

Sure the coaches will look at that and we will be a better side because of it

I think the bench was weakened before the end of the first half, by Furbs. Ramm, and Mayanavanua having to leave the pitch. Our bench was simply not good enough.

Money talks.

It does

But it can’t be the overriding factor
If the coaches and players thought that the reason they lost was because the opposition had a bigger budget and in doing so dismissed every other aspect of the game then I don’t think we would learn or move forward



I would expect all the coaches will work through that game second by second and look at what we did well and what areas we can improve in

Surprisingly not one Saints player or coach who was interviewed at the end said’ what do you expect they have more money than us’

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Deesaint

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Deesaint
I thought, second half in particular, they strangled us at the breakdown
Even more evident when replacements came on

Win the breakdown win the game

Sure the coaches will look at that and we will be a better side because of it

I think the bench was weakened before the end of the first half, by Furbs. Ramm, and Mayanavanua having to leave the pitch. Our bench was simply not good enough.

Money talks.

It does

But it can’t be the overriding factor
If the coaches and players thought that the reason they lost was because the opposition had a bigger budget and in doing so dismissed every other aspect of the game then I don’t think we would learn or move forward



I would expect all the coaches will work through that game second by second and look at what we did well and what areas we can improve in

Surprisingly not one Saints player or coach who was interviewed at the end said’ what do you expect they have more money than us’

Of course, you are absolutely correct. Toulon prove it's not the size of the budget but how it is used.

You cannot avoid the issue, however, that we cannot even afford - and I choose that word advisedly - to challenge our Premiership title.

I think we are making a huge impact with our playing roster. But with them all, there comes a time when it is simply not enough.

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Longers

Quote:

Deesaint

Quote:

Longers

Quote:

Deesaint
I thought, second half in particular, they strangled us at the breakdown
Even more evident when replacements came on

Win the breakdown win the game

Sure the coaches will look at that and we will be a better side because of it

I think the bench was weakened before the end of the first half, by Furbs. Ramm, and Mayanavanua having to leave the pitch. Our bench was simply not good enough.




Money talks.

It does

But it can’t be the overriding factor
If the coaches and players thought that the reason they lost was because the opposition had a bigger budget and in doing so dismissed every other aspect of the game then I don’t think we would learn or move forward



I would expect all the coaches will work through that game second by second and look at what we did well and what areas we can improve in

Surprisingly not one Saints player or coach who was interviewed at the end said’ what do you expect they have more money than us’

Of course, you are absolutely correct. Toulon prove it's not the size of the budget but how it is used.

You cannot avoid the issue, however, that we cannot even afford - and I choose that word advisedly - to challenge our Premiership title.

I think we are making a huge impact with our playing roster. But with them all, there comes a time when it is simply not enough.

100% agree.

Quote:

JCDL86

Quote:

PaulHerox
Both Amashukeli and the TMO were superb and contributed to a brilliantly refereed game.

I'm not sure any game with a cynical deliberate knock-on given as penalty-only can be described as 'brilliantly refereed'... That would've led to a 7-8 minute period with a 2 man advantage.

That wasn't the only card Bordeaux swerved either. The head contact on Lockett needed looking at and it's commonplace for for tackles within 10m of quick taps to result in yellow. They were extremely quick to discuss the Furbank incident as a rugby incident. I think plenty of officials would've looked it more closely and considered a sanction for recklessness.

I don't think the ref was as terrible as some have said, but it wasn't a good performance either. There were an usually high number of corrected decisions as a result of TMO intervention.

I think you’ve got that just about spot on and I expect that will be the flavour of the referring assessment undertaken by the EPRC.

Saying that, the lack of yellow for the knock on was just plainly wrong. A deliberate knock on that close to the line is a yellow. That is a serious error by a top level ref. It’s a serious error by any ref tbh. If you have come to the decision to give a pen, you have to give a yellow.

Quote:

JCDL86
I'm not sure any game with a cynical deliberate knock-on given as penalty-only can be described as 'brilliantly refereed'... That would've led to a 7-8 minute period with a 2 man advantage.
...
I don't think the ref was as terrible as some have said, but it wasn't a good performance either. There were an usually high number of corrected decisions as a result of TMO intervention.

Hard to take anything from that list other than a lack of objectivity as a Saints supporter.
That's fair enough we all do it but as a neutral with no skin in the game and a desire if anything to see Saints win (even after last week) I think it was well refereed.
Pretty much every neutral I've spoken to thinks it was one of the best refereed games they've seen for an age and it was a tough game to referee with lots going on.

There will always be things that are missed and there will always be calls that are subjective.
There will also always be people whose views are based on their incorrect understanding of the Laws. "If you have come to the decision to give a pen, you have to give a yellow" above being a good example.
There will also inevitably be things that are missed in an 80 minute game that are clearer viewing again at ones leisure.

Someone above makes a great point that two incidents can be a yellow and one could have almost been only a penalty and the other almost a red. That doesn't make the decisions wrong but shows how complex things are and how narrow the margins.

It also seems odd to complain about TMO intervening to correct decisions. The referee is only human and it's impossible to catch everything in game. I thought he worked well with the TMO and the ability to say "I got that wrong, you've shown me evidence that I have to change my decision" is an attitude all referees should be willing to embrace.

What I liked most was how clear Amashukeli was with his decision-making and how willing he was to clarify especially to Dingwall who was in his ear all game (a good thing btw as that's good Captaincy to me) there were a few things I saw differently and yet when the explanation was given I could get on board with that view.

I'm sure that both clubs supporters will have seen incidents that they felt the referee missed or got wrong but objectively I think great refereeing was a big part of why it was such a good, compelling game.

All very ironic and a bit rich coming from someone who was very critical of Luke Pearce in the Saints v Saracens match the week before when you described his performance as ‘woeful’ on the Saracens forum.
You also dissected the game and highlighted several missed ‘offences’ by Northampton, yet conveniently overlooked Daly’s forward pass to Gonzalez and also Van Zyl knocking the ball out of Seabrook’s hand while lying on the floor and out of the game.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

JCDL86
I'm not sure any game with a cynical deliberate knock-on given as penalty-only can be described as 'brilliantly refereed'... That would've led to a 7-8 minute period with a 2 man advantage.
...
I don't think the ref was as terrible as some have said, but it wasn't a good performance either. There were an usually high number of corrected decisions as a result of TMO intervention.

Hard to take anything from that list other than a lack of objectivity as a Saints supporter.
That's fair enough we all do it but as a neutral with no skin in the game and a desire if anything to see Saints win (even after last week) I think it was well refereed.
Pretty much every neutral I've spoken to thinks it was one of the best refereed games they've seen for an age and it was a tough game to referee with lots going on.

There will always be things that are missed and there will always be calls that are subjective.
There will also always be people whose views are based on their incorrect understanding of the Laws. "If you have come to the decision to give a pen, you have to give a yellow" above being a good example.
There will also inevitably be things that are missed in an 80 minute game that are clearer viewing again at ones leisure.

Someone above makes a great point that two incidents can be a yellow and one could have almost been only a penalty and the other almost a red. That doesn't make the decisions wrong but shows how complex things are and how narrow the margins.

It also seems odd to complain about TMO intervening to correct decisions. The referee is only human and it's impossible to catch everything in game. I thought he worked well with the TMO and the ability to say "I got that wrong, you've shown me evidence that I have to change my decision" is an attitude all referees should be willing to embrace.

What I liked most was how clear Amashukeli was with his decision-making and how willing he was to clarify especially to Dingwall who was in his ear all game (a good thing btw as that's good Captaincy to me) there were a few things I saw differently and yet when the explanation was given I could get on board with that view.

I'm sure that both clubs supporters will have seen incidents that they felt the referee missed or got wrong but objectively I think great refereeing was a big part of why it was such a good, compelling game.

I could have added more detail, but it’s a yellow card. Pause the game at 31.31. It prevents a clear line break. It’s almost preventing a clear try as the only reason the defenders get so close to Prowse is because he slows down on not collecting the ball.

Funny that you complement me on my point regarding the two yellows in your very next paragraph, so you must have some respect for my knowledge…

RDS I was very careful to frame my view that "loyalty" is in my view colouring the view that it was a poor refereeing performance.
I'm no less guilty of that re last week although several of the things I thought showed how good a referee Amashukeli is were in marked contrast to Pearce last week.
Amashukeli made several calls "live" but then changed his mind based on compelling evidence from the TMO for example.
Pearce stuck to his "live" view despite being shown a clear forward pass and the TMO trying to "suggest" he'd got it wrong.
Amashukeli also showed he actually knows the Laws unlike Pearce e.g. Davidsons tackle is always illegal as it's a shoulder with no wrap so can't be mitigated down from yellow given head contact, penalising a player for entry in open play, etc In contrast Amashukeli corrected Dingwall's claims of neck-rolls by saying they weren't as there was no twist. Simply grasping by the neck at a breakdown isn't a penalty.

Pearce missed stuff for Saracens for sure too. Van-Zyl on the line being the one I'd have been most unhappy about if I were supporting Saints. The Daly pass is out of his hands backwards, momentum takes the pass forward over a 15m+ wide pass. Literally text book of what is allowed as a forward pass given "momentum" Passing out of the hands forward a good metre and a half in front of you to a player less than two metres away it ain't!

Quote:

Im
Funny that you complement me on my point regarding the two yellows in your very next paragraph, so you must have some respect for my knowledge…

Why is it funny? You made a great point about how a similar sanction can be awarded for different offences that could easily have had significantly different sanctions.
Your suggestion of a missed card is incorrect in Law.
I don't really get what respect has to do with it. One's right, one isn't.

Quote:

PaulHerox
RDS I was very careful to frame my view that "loyalty" is in my view colouring the view that it was a poor refereeing performance.
I'm no less guilty of that re last week although several of the things I thought showed how good a referee Amashukeli is were in marked contrast to Pearce last week.
Amashukeli made several calls "live" but then changed his mind based on compelling evidence from the TMO for example.
Pearce stuck to his "live" view despite being shown a clear forward pass and the TMO trying to "suggest" he'd got it wrong.
Amashukeli also showed he actually knows the Laws unlike Pearce e.g. Davidsons tackle is always illegal as it's a shoulder with no wrap so can't be mitigated down from yellow given head contact, penalising a player for entry in open play, etc In contrast Amashukeli corrected Dingwall's claims of neck-rolls by saying they weren't as there was no twist. Simply grasping by the neck at a breakdown isn't a penalty.

Pearce missed stuff for Saracens for sure too. Van-Zyl on the line being the one I'd have been most unhappy about if I were supporting Saints. The Daly pass is out of his hands backwards, momentum takes the pass forward over a 15m+ wide pass. Literally text book of what is allowed as a forward pass given "momentum" Passing out of the hands forward a good metre and a half in front of you to a player less than two metres away it ain't!

Quote:

Im
Funny that you complement me on my point regarding the two yellows in your very next paragraph, so you must have some respect for my knowledge…

Why is it funny? You made a great point about how a similar sanction can be awarded for different offences that could easily have had significantly different sanctions.
Your suggestion of a missed card is incorrect in Law.
I don't really get what respect has to do with it. One's right, one isn't.

Because you claim I am wrong in law on a point, yet provide no support. Whilst at the same time implicitly acknowledge I can grasp subtleties within the law/game.

If you are going to claim I’m wrong in law, then back it up with some evidence

It’s a yellow card

If you want a real one eyed view of the officiating, the applying the head contact protocols, which I assume you have read, then

1 Prowse’syellow should have just been a pen. Low force would have started with a yellow card, and then the 12s change of direction by sidestepping into Prowse would mitigate it to just a pen.
2 the Bordeaux head contact yellow should have been a red. If a player fails an HIA, then it can’t logically follow that the initial force was low. And there was no mitigation.

In addition, the Bordeaux 15 should have been yellow carded for the knee to Furbank. It was reckless play.

There's no point in back and fourth as you're just repeating opinion as fact:

"If it's a penalty it has to be a yellow" (It's a penalty because of the deliberate knock-on. For a card it would need to be clearly stopping a try-scoring opportunity. You say there's a potential line break but Coleman is in a position to affect a tackle so no referee would treat it as such)

"if it's an HIA it has to be with force" (plenty of HIAs aren't as the result of significant force, the referees mitigation is "passive tackle, low force")

"It was reckless play" sorry but that's just ridiculously myopic. Furbank falls in front of where the Bordeaux player is running to get to the ball. He has no time to react. It's that simple.
It's unfortunate for Furbank but it's a rugby incident.

With respect I'll leave it as agree to disagree.

Quote:

PaulHerox
RDS I was very careful to frame my view that "loyalty" is in my view colouring the view that it was a poor refereeing performance..

Hmmm.
You’ve said ‘There will always be things that are missed and there will always be calls that are subjective’ and ‘The referee is only human and it’s difficult to catch everything in a game’ so it must be another Paul Herox who said the following on the Saracens forum at 16.48 on 17/05:
‘Luke Pearce you are a F**king disgrace.
80 minutes of trying to give Saints the game.
There's at least three legitimate turnovers not given in the last five minutes alone.
So proud of the team. Absolutely robbed.’

I'm not getting where you don't see that I've not claimed I'm impartial on our game? I'm as biased as the next "home" supporter.
I didn't have any stake in your game v Bordeaux.

Quote:

PaulHerox
There's no point in back and fourth as you're just repeating opinion as fact:
"If it's a penalty it has to be a yellow" (It's a penalty because of the deliberate knock-on. For a card it would need to be clearly stopping a try-scoring opportunity. You say there's a potential line break but Coleman is in a position to affect a tackle so no referee would treat it as such)

"if it's an HIA it has to be with force" (plenty of HIAs aren't as the result of significant force, the referees mitigation is "passive tackle, low force")

"It was reckless play" sorry but that's just ridiculously myopic. Furbank falls in front of where the Bordeaux player is running to get to the ball. He has no time to react. It's that simple.
It's unfortunate for Furbank but it's a rugby incident.

With respect I'll leave it as agree to disagree.

LOL

I literally state the 2nd and 3rd point are one eyed….

It doesn’t have to be stopping a try scoring opportunity for it to be a yellow card.

You can’t claim someone doesn’t know the laws when you don’t know them yourself

Here is a clear explanation. I am unaware of any updates world rugby have made since 2023

Coleman was only in a position to effect a tackle because Prowse had slowed down on not collecting the ball. If he had, he would have accelerated into the space left by the 6 stepping out the line. At best Coleman would have made a passive tackle and Prowse would have had his hands free to comfortable offload past the tackle to the Saints man in support.

It’s a clear yellow and poor officiating not to look at it upstairs. It’s made worse by the fact it’s 5 meters out

We can agree to disagree, but if you continue to remain ignorant of the laws whilst accusing others of being if ignorant then maybe I am the idiot for continuing to argue with you.

"Coleman was only in a position to effect a tackle because Prowse had slowed down on not collecting the ball. If he had, he would have accelerated into the space left by the 6 stepping out the line. At best Coleman would have made a passive tackle and Prowse would have had his hands free to comfortable offload past the tackle to the Saints man in support"

Again that is what you think/would like to be the case and even there your qualification is all the reason needed to rule it out as a linebreak.
That isn't how these situations are refereed.
The question would be is there be a defender still in a position to affect a tackle? yes? no linebreak or try.
Do you have an example in mind of a player yellowed for a deliberate knock-down when not under penalty warning already where there's no try-scoring opportunity?

I'm happy to go with we'd have won with Amashukeli, an excellent, referee against you and you'd have won with Pearce against UBB!

On a less contentious note Squidge rugby has done a good piece on the game although the focus is obviously on how UBB won there's lots of complimentary and interesting stuff on how Saints played

[www.youtube.com]

Quote:

Saint Robert

+ 1

Quote:

PaulHerox
"Coleman was only in a position to effect a tackle because Prowse had slowed down on not collecting the ball. If he had, he would have accelerated into the space left by the 6 stepping out the line. At best Coleman would have made a passive tackle and Prowse would have had his hands free to comfortable offload past the tackle to the Saints man in support"
Again that is what you think/would like to be the case and even there your qualification is all the reason needed to rule it out as a linebreak.
That isn't how these situations are refereed.
The question would be is there be a defender still in a position to affect a tackle? yes? no linebreak or try.
Do you have an example in mind of a player yellowed for a deliberate knock-down when not under penalty warning already where there's no try-scoring opportunity?

I'm happy to go with we'd have won with Amashukeli, an excellent, referee against you and you'd have won with Pearce against UBB!

On a less contentious note Squidge rugby has done a good piece on the game although the focus is obviously on how UBB won there's lots of complimentary and interesting stuff on how Saints played

[www.youtube.com]

Aaron Smith NZ vs Ireland 2023 RWC

[wwos.nine.com.au]

Stop accusing people of not knowing the laws when you do not yourself please

A great day, but massively disappointing result, the guys gave everything and I’m so immensely proud. One think I will say though, in the warm up, Ramm was on one leg, he couldn’t run, if I can see it from where I was sitting, how did the physios not see it? Also surely he should be saying something to tell the coaching group, I’m not fit? Low and behold, 1.55 into game, he goes off injured

Chris Jones on X

Jefferson Poirot banned for two weeks for dangerously grabbing Henry Pollock by the throat. Admitted offence got 50 % knocked off