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Saracens Mess + the Report
Posted by: Pasty Exile (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 08:03

The full report has been leaked to Sky News;

[news.sky.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/01/2020 08:13 by SenorJuan.

Saracens mess
Posted by: gran (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 04:12

With the acknowledgement by the new Saracens management that they are over the cap this season , and the implication being that they need to offload players right now, they have messed up the season for others who played a full strength side as against playing a future weaker side.
In fairness all their results so far should be voided. They should also be relegated.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 05:31

Quote:
gran
With the acknowledgement by the new Saracens management that they are over the cap this season , and the implication being that they need to offload players right now, they have messed up the season for others who played a full strength side as against playing a future weaker side.
In fairness all their results so far should be voided. They should also be relegated.

Nope.

If they do prove to be over the cap this season, there are already punishments in place in the agreement (which all clubs signed up to).

Canít just start machine gunning new sanctions at them.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: happyH (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 07:37

Tbh it is a bit rubbish really. I assume if they have already played 8 matches and they weren't compliant for those then they will get another penalty next season.

It should have been resolved and they should have been made to show compliance before the start of the season.

I guess with World Cup and late release of judgement that wasn't possible.

I assume this was reason for sarries meeting yesterday.
However, lots of legal wrangling are probably necessary. All their players will be under contract and they can't just offload them or cut their salaries instantly.

A right mess and I can see any bottom club not being happy but the same was the case for last three years.
The agreement signed up to means the penalties affect non compliant clubs the next season.

Premier league rugby really needs to be a bit more transparent and publish findings for the good of rugby.

CMON BRISSS

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: bartman! (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 10:55

The RFU have once again shown how poor it is in making the right dissions over the handling of the Saracens mess and its all the other clubs including the Championship that are to suffer.
It would have been the correct decision to make sure Saracens fielded a team that complied to the correct funding at the start of this season and not let them play with an unchanged team up to now, for this is causing even more problems as the season goes on.
The money from the fine should have gone to the Championship funding, rather than handed out to the Premership clubs. Maybe the RFU a worried that if Saracens go go down (as they should this season) they would have to sort out the ringfencing issue once and for all?

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 11:17

As I understand it the salary cap is about how much you have spent over the season - so if you spend half of it on the players etc you have for the first month and then (having off-loaded lots of players &/or agreed salary cuts) the other half of the cap is used on your players etc for the rest of the months combined then you are OK.

But of course the longer Sarries leave it to get rid of players &/or agree wage cuts the more they will have to cut.

This 'revelation' from Griffiths also shows up the earlier claim by Sarries that it was only the company director scheme which was an issue and they would be fine for this season salary-cap wise.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Jim H (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 11:34

Bartman, this is the PRLs issue not the RFU. It's why the Sarries fine went to the premiership clubs and Newcastle missed out on it.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 11:44

What nobody seems to want to face is that the punishment received by Saracens, although the maximum permitted by the regulations, has only slightly handicapped them this season and the only real consequence is that they might miss out on top European competition next season.

This means that a club that has complied by the rules will be relegated.

Let's be clear, a club that we know has cheated over several seasons (and that we know was cheating before but paid to make it go away - and then went on to cheat again after signing up to new rules) will be slightly inconvenienced next season. And someone that has abided by the rules will be relegated with all the dangers and loss of income that entails. How is that fair?

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: tbr (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 12:43

Quote:
Gray_Lensman
What nobody seems to want to face is that the punishment received by Saracens, although the maximum permitted by the regulations, has only slightly handicapped them this season and the only real consequence is that they might miss out on top European competition next season.
This means that a club that has complied by the rules will be relegated.

Let's be clear, a club that we know has cheated over several seasons (and that we know was cheating before but paid to make it go away - and then went on to cheat again after signing up to new rules) will be slightly inconvenienced next season. And someone that has abided by the rules will be relegated with all the dangers and loss of income that entails. How is that fair?

It isn't fair, is it? I agree.
But unfortunately that was what we all agreed to wasn't it? Cap, punishments and all.

It's weird all this.
I know a few Saracens fans and to a man (and woman) they all feel strongly that the points deduction was "incredibly unfair" (and I actually quote them there).

To be honest the rugby friendship with our Saracens fan friends that my wife and I (both Bris of course) have had over the last 12 years or so (they occasionally come to watch Bris with us and we occasionally watch Saracens with them) has been damaged a bit by all this.

Mainly because we're POLES apart in terms of what we regard to be fair.

My wife and I wish anyone found cheating was immediately relegated for the following season. And we wish that was the standard and only punishment. (Even though that would be hard to set up... what if four teams were found to be cheating for example?).

And our Saracens fan friends regard even the points deduction (alone) to be unfair.

I coached and reffed at a rugby festival for juniors the other week. At Allianz.
And to be frank... it didn't feel right to me to even *be there*.

Look, I know it's not the juniors fault of course, nor 99% the staff...nor the fans... and I actually feel sorry for *those* Saracens.
But an awful lot of others (if they try to defend the cheats) I really don't feel sorry for at all.
I think they're still getting off easy.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: James_P (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 13:48

Mark Evans on The Ruck podcast was really good value this week. Talking about how the cap is enforced in Australia and the realities of how there should be a few front line players leaving each year in a team that is up to the cap as young player's value increases.

Personally given what is in the press about them still being over I'd be in favour of chucking them out the league for next season and expunged titles but the rules are what they are I guess.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 14:36

Quote:
Gray_Lensman
What nobody seems to want to face is that the punishment received by Saracens, although the maximum permitted by the regulations, has only slightly handicapped them this season and the only real consequence is that they might miss out on top European competition next season.

You are exactly right....

I would assume that they made at least £5m (over and above 'par') based on commercial and sponsorship income from being multiple Champs.

So it really is just a case of 1 season playing in the Challenge Cup rather than Champions Cup.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 14:39

Quote:
James_P
Mark Evans on The Ruck podcast was really good value this week. Talking about how the cap is enforced in Australia and the realities of how there should be a few front line players leaving each year in a team that is up to the cap as young player's value increases.

This is what happens in the NFL, a league with a well-established salary cap. Every year top level players hit free agency, as room is made to retain emerging stars.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 17:07

Quote:
tbr
My wife and I wish anyone found cheating was immediately relegated for the following season. And we wish that was the standard and only punishment. (Even though that would be hard to set up... what if four teams were found to be cheating for example?).

That'd be hard to for another reason too. Proving that a breach is deliberate is quite hard. Even PRL weren't unequivocal about it, saying instead that Saracens essentially took a risk knowing what they were doing *might* be shady.

What if, for instance, a club goes £20K over the cap. Easily done since the cap relies on quite a lot of movable factors. You have to guess how many England players you're going to have for instance. What if Itoje was injured for the 6Ns. Suddenly his England allowance no longer applies. £20K over the cap, cheating or not? I think we'd all agree not. So where do you set your limit?

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: tbr (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 17:30

Quote:
Poking With Sticks
Quote:
tbr
My wife and I wish anyone found cheating was immediately relegated for the following season. And we wish that was the standard and only punishment. (Even though that would be hard to set up... what if four teams were found to be cheating for example?).

That'd be hard to for another reason too. Proving that a breach is deliberate is quite hard. Even PRL weren't unequivocal about it, saying instead that Saracens essentially took a risk knowing what they were doing *might* be shady.

What if, for instance, a club goes £20K over the cap. Easily done since the cap relies on quite a lot of movable factors. You have to guess how many England players you're going to have for instance. What if Itoje was injured for the 6Ns. Suddenly his England allowance no longer applies. £20K over the cap, cheating or not? I think we'd all agree not. So where do you set your limit?

Sure. I concur.
Absolutely it wouldn't be straightforward... but I'm also sure it *could* be done if there was enough will.
Make the sanction much harder and no-one would risk it. Or even risk getting close?
As GL said... at present it *feels* (to me) like someone playing by the rules may well get relegated this year and someone who at present still doesnt *appear* 1 to be there yet (in line with the cap) will not be relegated.
What a mess.

1 They may be of course, it just seems hard to see how as the squad doesnt seem to have changed. Have they all taken a salary cut?

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AGS (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 18:22

I find it interesting that there have been no statements from any of their sponsors. Usually teams or individuals caught cheating lose one or two of their sponsors due to bad PR/image, and we also know that Irish list their diageo sponsorship when they signed Jackson.

They clearly don't think this is such a bad thing

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 19:38

Quote:
AGS
They clearly don't think this is such a bad thing

They are clearly correct

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 21:34

Quote:
AlexInSouthville
Quote:
AGS
They clearly don't think this is such a bad thing

They are clearly correct

There has been a statement from Allianz. Their deal finishes in 2021 and I would think part of Saracens change at the top and new transparency must in part be to a desire to rebuild the confidence of their sponsors.

I did chuckle at the post from further up expressing outrage at the RFU when they had nothing to do with the process. If you're going to have a pop at something best to get the facts right.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Rinkadink (IP Logged)
Date: 07 January, 2020 22:06

Quote:
AlexInSouthville
Quote:
AGS
They clearly don't think this is such a bad thing

They are clearly correct

Given the media seems to speak out in defense of Saracens most of the time, success and exposure might be better for high profile sponsors?

I don't think they approve of what's happened but if they haven't seen a negative effect from sponsorship then why change at the moment?

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2020 08:10

Quote:
Rinkadink
Quote:
AlexInSouthville
Quote:
AGS
They clearly don't think this is such a bad thing

They are clearly correct

Given the media seems to speak out in defense of Saracens most of the time, success and exposure might be better for high profile sponsors?

I don't think they approve of what's happened but if they haven't seen a negative effect from sponsorship then why change at the moment?

My bad, i think i misread that.

I took is as "Sarries indiscretions were not such as bad thing as Paddy Jackson's"....reading back, you meant "Sponsors don't feel Sarries indiscretions are that bad".

On that latter point, you are right....if they lose no sponsors, and avoid relegation, the reality is that all these 3 years of offences have realy cost them is one year (next season) of Champions Cup rugby.

Re: Saracens mess
Posted by: Rinkadink (IP Logged)
Date: 08 January, 2020 09:13

Just want to point out that AGS and I are two different people... at least I think we are. Did I black out again for a minute there?

tongue sticking out smiley

Interesting thread on Twitter; [mobile.twitter.com]

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