Thanks Chris, I think we are suffering from trying to build a new team with insufficient pre season games.

There again I agree with Cockers wanting to minimise the risk of further injuries and so only having three games. The first choice players only played half a game against Nottingham and may be a full game would have helped with the bonding.

There were improvements at Wasps with the team working better for each other. This week I would like many here to see Hawkins and Young start and hope that Tait will be fit.

This really is a must win game, a fine calm sunny day would help us no end.

You may say he was perfectly positioned (second penalty) but the ref can clearly be heard saying "you're off your feet" and he continued to play the ball, considering it was a nothing ruck in the middle of the field and Allen is vastly experianced I think it is worth pointing out he was hardly a defensive bulwark when he was responsible for at least 13 of their points.

Rich I didn't say he was the solely responsible player for the loss but given how you blamed 12trees allegedly suspect defense after Agulla missed a tackle in the gloucester game I thought it was bizaree how Allen was, seemingly, getting away with what was a poor performance when others get it in the neck.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

I must say that had the "bulwark" not done such a good job then things could have unravelled very badly - are you sure he wasn't solely responsible for all 35 points?

As I've said eleswhere I thought that Andrw Small had a decent game but the laws surrounding the ruck are amongst the worst and too often applied without common sense and seemingly without the referee ever having played the game.

I can't imagine how a player, correctly positioned and playing the ball on being pulled into an offside position can be expected to instantly release the ball as some of the less empathatic officials require.

Quote:

Rich I didn't say he was the solely responsible player for the loss but given how you blamed 12trees allegedly suspect defense after Agulla missed a tackle in the gloucester game I thought it was bizaree how Allen was, seemingly, getting away with what was a poor performance when others get it in the neck.

I don't actually recall that incident but if I made an error in identifying a player that isn't the same thing as observing that I thought another player played well against Ex - nb not Wasps. I explained that I didn't see the Wasps game so couldn't comment on those individual incidents. If I [wrongly] identified a defensive error by 36 that isn't the same thing as suggesting he has suspect defence - I've never that I can recall thought that Billy's defence was suspect as a whole. In fact I've generally thought his defence solid. That he might make an error from time to time doesn't seem contentious. The same might be applied to Allen - generally solid and well organised - capable of occasional error...

I'm really struggling to see how you can tie these things together.

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I meant the Morgan try last year when you blamed 12trees positioning for Agulla missing a tackle, yet no one has been saying how a poor defensive performance by Allen means he shouldn't play.

We've conceeded 30+ points in both games, I don't think anyone can be said to have a had a good defensive game in such circumstances.

Right - I remember the try - and I just about remember the discussion - and I'm happy to stand by my feeling at the time that it was Billy's fault - though I would accept that if Agulla missed the tackle then he was clearly also culpable whatever other issues there were.. But I'm also convinced that I thought it an error - and in no way suggested that he shouldn't be playing as a consequence.

You're trying to put words into my mouth!

And your last comment is nonsense - of course someone might be said to be having a good game in those circumstances - it might be that their excellence kept the scores conceeded down!

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Using your blame culture approach to Anthony Allen, I guess 14 of your points were Nicky Robinson's fault firstly he didn't clear his kick to touch and failed to tackle 36 effectively.

Secondly he let Ford slip inside him for an easy second try.

Oh yes he missed 4 kicks tut tut

As for Wade's second try, poor clearance from Ford, Chuter way off the pace all game and a woeful effort from your number 7

And Mickey Youngs apparently a lot quicker than Grindall, but 10 yard start on Wade and nowhere.....

Last season some waspy folks just liked finding scapegoats it's so easy to do.......

Exactly!

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Well yeah I think those points were Nicky Robinson's fault and his high error rate is why he also comes close but never actually manages to win anything as somewhere along the line in a knock out match his errors prove too costly.

Basically he's a poor mans Andy Goode, more errors and less moments and genius.

Rather have him than Andy Goode any day, faster better passer, and bound to be a few pies left at the end of the day, we accept that he has the odd off day as does every flyhalf

Better passer?

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I thought it odd that speed is considered a key attribute for a fly half, especially as surely the ultra rapid Alex King is surely Wasps greatest ever fly half?

I imagine not many wasps fans would argue if I said he was a poor mans King.

But a better kicker...

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At least, it is not a Fri. night.Very good piece again Chris.