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Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 01:24

Ah, James While. He's prone to a touch of hyperbole from time to time. Good bloke though and well prepared to debate his editorial pieces.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/01/2020 01:24 by Brownian Motion.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: IanC (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 07:18

In all honesty I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with much in that piece.
The people in the comments saying "are you saying they took performance enhancing drugs because of the comparison to Lance Arnstrong" are just, sadly, a bit thick.
What they have done is rendered several seasons (probably all of them since the salary cap existed because of their decision to do almost anything to avoid opening the books) of competition irrelevant and tainted (just as Armstrong did) and then did everything in their power to cover it up (just as Armstrong did). Unfortunately their punishment hasn't been on the same scale because give it a year and they'll be back and up to the same tricks but better hidden, and without a huge change in governance and at least bare competence from the so called Salary Cap manager, they'll get away with it.
I'm still of the view that the Salary Cap is largely a dead letter because you can't stop an egotistical rich person giving people money to do what he wants, and certainly without at least slight competence from those policing the system.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: odd-shaped vagaries (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 10:43

Before the top of the game went pofessional there was rife shamateurism, so who is squeaky clean?

When the game went professional there was concern that in time money would ruin it and I think that day has passed, but if a salary cap of sorts is not in place we may well end up with one or two clubs way ahead of the rest purely by the injection of cash .. a souless entity worse than currently, if you like

For me, in professional rugby we have a post-apocalyptic ruin on our hands [in which there still may be a perverted pleasure for a while]. I have enjoyed, in some masochistic way, Tigers' recent travails because it has, it continues to be, a fight for glory, albeit relative glory, in our fight to return to silverware. I am much less concened that we achieve that silverware, even though that is obviously the measure of our efforts to win our fight against the odds and I would/will cheer it to the rafters. If it was achieved by just coughing up more cash than the rest it would be hollow, as Salaries have found and upon which we might reflect [Tigers v Barf .. nineties .. anyone?] .. so I have to say that a salary cap is essential, and the best policing of it possible is as much as we can expect.

Eeee! I rightly miss t'bomb site playgrounds of me child'ood



The referee is the final arbitrary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/01/2020 18:53 by odd-shaped vagaries.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: harlequinade (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 11:53

Strong words...
"With regards to Saracens, both their non-executive directors, acting directors and senior coaching staff knew everything and, on that basis, need to face personal sanctions and be removed from any involvement in the game completely, sine die. If that means the club ceases trading, so be it. Like Lance Armstrong, they can always watch the games on TV. For the investors, tough – it’s your desire for vicarious satisfaction that’s driven the issue.

Elsewhere, extreme pressure should be applied by World Rugby to the PRO14 and other contiguous leagues to refuse Sarries any form of ‘creative’ lifeline. There can be no compromise here; the North London club are cancerous and their tumour of deceit needs removing from the game completely.

With regards to PRL, they need to take a good long look at themselves and man up. Honesty, empathy and vision is now needed to reassure disenfranchised fans who have spent the last few years watching a tissue of lies. There needs to be action too from the RFU and there needs to be implementation of some form of guardianship of the spirit of the game.

Yes, there will be some angry Saracens fans reading this piece and disagreeing. Some players too may share a very different view to the one articulated above, but here’s the thing; many watch rugby because of its essences of respect, honesty and honour.

Saracens have insulted the very core of these values, not once but twice. That is unforgivable and removes every single quality of rugby that makes the sport unique."



Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: Tom Paine (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 12:20

I have to agree with OSV rather than IanC on the salary cap. The professional team sports where there is a free market, as in Prem League Soccer tend to support OSV's view that it leads to domination of the league by the richest clubs. I have a friend who was chairman of a Championship soccer club - he went through the Championship table with me and the positions matched the wealth of the owners almost to a tee.
Ian's view that in today's world it's hard to avoid the rule of money is also true. Money buys almost anything, even elections. But there is one sport that attempts to level the playing field even in the most capitalist country on earth. The NFL, using its admittedly unique draft system, does appear to generate a genuine competition which is rarely dominated by a few teams for very long. Similarly the French Top 14 , even with its much maligned regulations, has seen even the richest teams fall from grace - Toulouse have had some bad times in the recent past and even Toulon is now playing in the Bic Biro.
I can't speak of the southern hemisphere, which is RichW's area of expertise, but I hope Premier Rugby can sustain a cap that can sustain a 12 (or ideally 14) team league and a healthy Championship. There are rich men backing most teams, but they're not super rich. The secret to keeping the league open is transparency. The unwillingness to embrace it tells you all you need to know about Saracens and, sadly, the current PL management.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 12:26

I don't think I'm especially an expert on the SH, Tom but I am inclined to agree with your overall analysis and certainly your conclusion.

I'm not sure, though, that Ian is advocating a complete, laissez faire, derregulation - just that the salary cap as a mechanism is so flawed and now holed below the waterline as to be defunct; and that another mechanism is required.



...

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: IanC (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 16:26

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not saying I am against the cap, although I'm cheerfully hypocritical and would like it set at exactly the level that Leicester can afford!
I am saying that without competent officials it is at best a negotiating tool to try to keep players wages down rather than any real prevention of people breaking it.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: Tom Paine (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:52

Quite agree, Ian. Though the "draconian"(copyright Mr Jones) punishment of Saracens might make a few others think twice, in the short term at least. We've hanged our Admiral Byng, let's see if les autres sont encouragee.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/01/2020 18:11 by Tom Paine.

Re: Painting oneself into a corner
Posted by: harlequinade (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 08:50

Another good article here!

Quote:
And to this day Saracens retain a small deranged core of press cheerleaders who regard their crimes as little more than a form-filling oversight, ignoring the potential for even a small overspend to distort the market: a marginal gain, if you like, but one that offers a decisive edge on your rivals.

Quote:
From the Champions League to Test cricket to Team GB: where money flows success often follows. But as a country we don’t really like to talk about that. We don’t like to talk about the ways in which financial clout can tilt the playing field, stockpile talent, buy political influence and favourable media coverage, hire batteries of lawyers to deter legislation and squash competitors.
Instead we would rather talk about winning mentalities and virtuous cultures, about creches and team-building jaunts. To do otherwise, after all, would be to tear down the illusion that still props up the narrative of sport in this country: that through talent, hard work and innovation alone, you too can stand atop the podium. It is a maxim that has never been true in society and is rarely – if ever – true in sport. Anyone telling you different is probably trying to sell you something.




Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

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