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Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Man from LA (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:01

It says on this link from November (before the poop *really* hit the fan) that the Barnet Council multi-million pound loan to Saracens could be a “risk too far” for the council and questions were asked what would happen if the rugby club collapsed:

[www.times-series.co.uk]

Barnet Council has paid £3.2m of a £22.9m, 30-year loan to build the stand yet the building work has been on hold since last summer (source below), so could be more trouble on the horizon money-wise, not including if sponsors pull-out and loss of TV money etc.

[inews.co.uk]

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: renko (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 18:14

Quote:
tigersince74
Hi Renko. Initially the only copy I could find of the salary cap regulations was for season 18/19 which says –
15 Promoted Club

15.1 A Promoted Club shall, within 28 days of receiving confirmation of promotion to the Aviva Premiership from PRL, comply with the requirements of Regulation 4.4 by providing to the Salary Cap Manager the documents listed in Regulation 4.4.

15.2 A Promoted Club shall provide copies of its Declaration for the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year and its Certification for the 2017-18 Salary Cap Year as required under Regulations 4.2 and 4.3.


I now have a copy of the 19/20 regs which says –

15 Promoted Club

15.1 A Promoted Club shall, within 28 days of receiving confirmation of promotion to the Gallagher Premiership from PRL, comply with the requirements of Regulation 4.4 by providing to the Salary Cap Manager the documents listed in Regulation 4.4.

15.2 A Promoted Club shall provide copies of its Declaration for the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year and its Certification for the 2017-18 Salary Cap Year as required under Regulations 4.2 and 4.3.


Spot the error the dates were not changed from one year to the next! It should read for the end of this season the promoted club provides copies of its declaration of complying with the salary cap 19/20 and certification of the previous year 18/19.

The new regs for next season 20/21 are usually published in February so not long to wait. It is normally compliance in the promotion year and the previous year

If Saracens finish top 20/21 they will need to be compliant in the successful Championship season and the previous year 19/20 which they failed and elected to be relegated.

Many thanks Tigersince74 - good research I could only find the 18/19 regulations and it rather sums up the PRL that they fail to update the following years regs! If it as you imply it seems amazing that Saracens (and the general press) seem to think they will be bouncing back in 2021/22. It will be interesting to see what happens as I can't imagine the PRL will be falling over to let them back up unless they dot the 'i's' and cross all the 't's'

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: SimonG19 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 20:09

Quote:
Man from LA
It says on this link from November (before the poop *really* hit the fan) that the Barnet Council multi-million pound loan to Saracens could be a “risk too far” for the council and questions were asked what would happen if the rugby club collapsed:
[www.times-series.co.uk]

Barnet Council has paid £3.2m of a £22.9m, 30-year loan to build the stand yet the building work has been on hold since last summer (source below), so could be more trouble on the horizon money-wise, not including if sponsors pull-out and loss of TV money etc.

[inews.co.uk]

Let's hope so.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Hymenoptera (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 21:48

Depends if this extract has any legs, from Alex Shaw who isn't known as a sensationalist. I will implode if this happens:

RugbyPass understands that there have been talks with Premiership Rugby Limited to allow for a one-season salary cap dispensation, so that current Premiership teams may be able to pick these players up whilst, in theory, Saracens spend just the one season in English rugby’s second tier.

[www.rugbypass.com]

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 22:14

Madness.



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Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 22:19

I can't see the other Prem clubs (or RFU or Championship clubs) agreeing to that. I would be willing to protest it outside PRL HQ with other fans if it came to that, too. Enough is enough.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 22:23

Players as board chips. Would makes our handling of the Slater/May and Burns/Ford affairs seem positively enlightened.



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Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Tiggs (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 22:32

It is the only solution for the players that now want to leave the toxic Sarries atmosphere, or do not want to play in the Championship. The players are not all guilty in this, even if some are.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/103/103_0_1529059667.jpg

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Duncan Keene (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 08:00

I don’t see the massive problem with this suggestion.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Monkey1 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:10

I may be talking b0ll0cks, but possibly no more than others, but my understanding is that there is no requirement for Championship clubs to meet the limitations of the salary cap. They may have to be able to produce the relevant documentation, but I don't see in any of the above, any stipulation that they have to comply while in the Championship. It is popularly believed that Bristol front-loaded contracts for some of their players so that they would be compliant for their first year in the Prem, and there is nothing wrong with that if it is honest & within the rules & regs.

If anybody could investigate the truth behind this it would help our guesswork.

As for the original question, if Wray (or his family, but let's be honest, it is Nigel's box of toys & nobody else's) decides that the other children in the playground don't like him anymore so he won't play, Sarries are finished. With the best will in the world, nobody could take over a club that loses that much money per month quickly enough to save it. He might sell out, but having just looked over their accounts this afternoon, I can't imagine anybody would touch it with a barge-pole. According to the books it appears to lose about £4m per year, then add the stuff not on the books, and the loss of sponsorship now that they are toxic, and it is a very expensive basket case. A debt of about £45m disappeared off the balance sheet in 2017/18, and if I remember right there were rumours of Sarries possibly being put up for sale some time ago, so maybe he wrote off the huge amount of dosh that he had pumped in up to that date to prepare for sale.

It is a grim situation for a once-fine club to be reduced into, and an utter mess.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: tigersince74 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 18:11

The truth Monkey1. Unfortunately, our beloved game of club rugby is managed by PRL and overseen by the RFU. Even Lord Dyson is now getting frustrated by PRL’s secrecy as he believes in transparency.

The Championship winners’ entry into the Premiership is fraught with obstacles. Compliance with the Salary Cap regulations is part of the Professional Game Board Minimum Standards Criteria. Good luck finding these since London Welsh took them on.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Monkey1 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 19:37

Thanks TS74. In that case, the end of next season could provide some comedy.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 18:54

Quote:
jojo

....... who knows who is going to pay the £5.4million compensation to the 11 compliant clubs.


I guess that PRL already have all or a large % of this fine in their hands as cash owed to Sarries? Central funding from rfu, tv, central sponsorships etc.

Plus all the clubs have recently had their cvc cash.



http://www.jakehowlett.com/tuckshop/wrappers/chocolate/plain/yorkie-nutter.jpg

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: tigersince74 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 20:38

In his interview at the weekend Lord Dyson said there were issues of Competition Law. Civil action by the clubs and supporters for compensation for this season, the last 3 seasons as found guilty and allegedly the previous 2 seasons that would make liquidation the only option.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Fat Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 09:34

Am I the only one that doesn't want to see Sarries disappear completely?? I get that they have cheated and many are (rightly) rather cross about it. But, if there is going to be anything beyond relegation for a year - I'd far rather see bans for bringing the game into disrepute for those involved in the cheating whether as players/coaches/owners/managers etc. for whatever period of time.

I think this also brings back the question about English teams' chances in Europe - where we are competing against teams that either have a higher salary cap, no salary cap or ignore whatever cap they have. Does this prove the point that the salary cap (and league structure) will make it incredibly difficult for any PRL team to do well in Europe? From a Tigers perspective we actually need to be getting back to the point we are good enough to even qualify before even thinking about winning - but from a broader "what's the point?" perspective it's a valid question.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 10:14

Just remember that all of the other Prem clubs would have stronger squads under the existing salary cap if Sarries hadn't artificially inflated wages as a result of their cheating. I don't think they should go out of existence, but one season in the Championship and all is forgotten? Not enough. Wray, Griffiths and McCall, as a minimum, should be banned from the sport for life, and some of the players should at the very least be financially sanctioned.

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 10:27

Agree with all that Fat Boy.

I do think that Saracens need to be de-toxified - and that seems likely to take more than a season. They need to unwind a number of contracts made in breach of the salary cap and restructure their squad appropriately. They surely can't renogtiate all those contracts in one season?

But there is no value in destroying an institution - into which a lot of innocent parties have invested a great deal of work, commitment and emotion - when the responsibility lies with individuals. Now I'm not certain that there aren't instutional issues arrising from those individuals - in that cheating and hubris have not become ingrained in the fabric of the institution (hence the need for profound de-toxifixation as above) but once the malign influence of those indviduals is removed the club will take a new course under new leadership - and should rise again - perhaps not to the same heights but then I suspect that no English club will rise to those heights for a long time - which goes to the point on the ability to compete in Europe with the Irish and French megabucks outfits.

What is needed long term is a way to grow the sport in England at a professional level so that the club game generate more of the money it needs to be able to compete. To do that a better mechanism of control than the salary cap is required - one that encourages and stimulates growth.

We need more people watching - live and on TV - we need more sales of merchandise, better sponsorsip deals, better TV deals - including more free to air etc, etc. To do that the product on the field has to be of the highest quality that can be managed. It has to be competitive - and here lies one of the great harms perpetrated by Sarries - so that all clubs are in with a shout of winning. It needs to have a more dynamic relationship between the Premiership and Championship so that there is a real chance of a club rising up the ranks and a risk of relegation - though without that meaning financial oblivion. Sport is engaging when there is jeopardy and a real risk/reward dynamic.

And there need to be more games - not a huge number but most of my soccer supporting friends are astonished by how few games we have in a season - and not pointless 'Premiership Cup' games. But the season is too stop-start and doesn't present a sufficiently compelling narrative for many people. The standard of officiating has to rise very significantly - and quickly. At the moment it is a significant drag on the sport - the laws are complicated enough without their constant randomisation during a game. And on that subject - the constant tinkering and adding to the laws has to stop - at least for a few years.

More than any of that though the game it has to be visibly, trasnparently, scrupulously clean.

This should be a watershed moment when time is taken to find a new, cleaner blueprint for the English professional club game.



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Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: IanC (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 10:39

Rich W has my vote!

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: (JSF) (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 12:19

and mine!

RichW for President

Re: Are Sarries in serious danger of going into liquidation?
Posted by: TonyMay (IP Logged)
Date: 23 January, 2020 13:32

All of the newspaper articles carry phrasing saying "nobody is suggesting that the players were complicit in this" or to that effect.

I am not convinced by the sweet cherubs.

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