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England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 20:25

Hopefully lessons have been learned from back when SCW "coached" England to a (winning) RWC Final and then sat on his hands/laurels for the next couple of years before bailing rather than using the limited number of International games from the get go to build towards the next RWC?

So what's happening with Eddie? As the Clash once asked, "Should he stay or should he go?" If it's the former then give him another 2 years on his contract so everyone knows what they're at. If the latter then bin the guy now and get the next person in post asap. But who is there to replace him? No-one obvious imvho so contract him until next RWC (but not beyond at this stage).

And so to the squad.

Is Marler really going to be around at the next RWC? Probably not so identify and select his potential replacement now. And if that's to be Genge then start him and bring a bench sitter in to support him.

We still need an alternative to Billy V at 8. Eddie's game plan needs a hard carrying no. 8 to work and as Billy V is injured (again) why not investigate a back-up/replacement for him rather than selecting an excellent scavenging openside at 8? He's obviously decided that Hughes not good enough for international standard rugby so why not give the Quins youngster, Dombrant, a chance to see what he can do?

And what happens if Faz gets injured? Who is going to fill his role? For me, decide and rest Faz for 3 of the next 4 games to check out who you think can provide the team with the same kind of input.

And scrum half is an obvious position where there is a need. YBY and Heinz no longer upto the job imvho and neither will be young/good enough come the next RWC.

When will Eddie give up on his Daly experiment? Not a fullback for me and certainly not a wing. Will Nowell manage to stop his bad injury run and be at his peak come the next RWC? Same with Watson? So do England need some more wingers too?

And what about Manu? Take him and Billy V out of the team and where are your ball carriers? Looking at that French game, no where until Genge appears off the bench!

There are other player around the squad like Lawes and Kruis who probably won't be around in 4 years time?

So on the face of it, England need a major rebuild with a limited number of games to use in the re-creation so the RFU/Eddie can ill afford to waste any gametime to look if players can step up from Domestic rugby. And does George Furbank get another opportunity after his" rabbit in the headlights" performance?



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Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: PrestonTiger (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 20:45

Genge not just a ball carrier.
Anyone notice it was a prop on Jonny's shoulder supporting for the last part of his 2nd try ? FFS a LH prop not a centre !
(Good on Genge for doing that and not just standing idle).

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 21:39

I think it's insanely hysterical that people are questioning Eddie's position as head coach. WE JUST GOT TO A WORLD CUP FINAL, OUR FIRST IN 12 YEARS. Hell, it's the joint-second performance of the country in the tournament.

As to the squad I'm with you, I don't see the point of retaining the vast majority of the older players. Some are still playing at a high level and lend good experience, but the likes of Marler, Lawes and Heinz were only supplemental players anyway and need to be cleared out for younger (and better) players. And the Sarries players should be on notice that nothing less than maximum effort will get you the boot. As things currently stand, I'd say England's 35 should probably be:

1 - Ellis Genge, Mako Vunipola, Alec Hepburn

2 - Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton

3 - Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Will Stuart

4/5 - Maro Itoje, Alex Moon, Jonny Hill, Joe Launchbury

6 - Ted Hill, Lewis Ludlam, Jack Willis

7 - Tom Curry, Sam Underhill

8 - Alex Dombrandt, Billy Vunipola

9 - Ben Spencer, Jack Maunder, Alex Mitchell

10 - George Ford, Owen Farrell, Jacob Umaga

11/14 - Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Gabriel Ibitoye

12/13 - Joe Marchant, Elliot Daly, Sam James, Sam Hill

15 - George Furbank, Simon Hammersley

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 22:15

Quote:
Brownian Motion
I think it's insanely hysterical that people are questioning Eddie's position as head coach. WE JUST GOT TO A WORLD CUP FINAL, OUR FIRST IN 12 YEARS.
You can shout all you like, he is not a winner, he's an improver, England need a winner and the RFU don't have anyone with any vision to plan ahead, it's all about the next game and England is now in danger of becoming the deadwood stage of the home nations.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Brownian Motion (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 22:43

Interesting that in all the times you've espoused this opinion, you've never once suggested any alternatives. Oh, except that they have to be English to satisfy your national pride. If you haven't actually got any ideas to discuss, I don't really care what you think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2020 22:43 by Brownian Motion.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Mrs H (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 22:46

Iím with BM on Eddie Jones
I think the RFU secured Jones further in order to implement a future vision for England and he is introducing younger players . You donít just suddenly chuck out all the older players after one bad game. 2 if youíre counting the WC final.
Knee jerk reactionism.
Having said that, I wouldnít keep Farrell as captain. Good player that he is, by choosing him as captain youíre stuck with him being on the field and limiting your options at fly half and centres. And he gets too emotional.
I would choose Otoje as captain. Young, sure of his place, a big lump and intelligent.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: RushdenTiger (KT at work) (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 23:08

These are also the players that are probably suffering from the World Cup hangover.

No matter how much we shout and scream that they're professionals etc etc. at this very small margin level even playing France in the Home Nations must seem a bit of a come down. It's managements job to find a way but to expect perfection in the first match is probably a bridge too far.

What's the saying? Evolution not revolution or something along those lines.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Rich W (IP Logged)
Date: 03 February, 2020 23:45

A little bit at least.



...

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 00:23

I dont like Jones limited vision of English rugby and as soon as he decided a big pack dominating over all else, he stymied english rugby for years.

Far better to have an expansive game and revert to plan B forward game, because it is easier to retreat to a simpler game when things aren't working rather than the other way round but we've not had a plan b for 4 years.

Jones picking BV is one thing if fit but the form 8 is Dombramt but he plays a games Jones doesnt think England can play.
Jones version fell short at the final....and more of the same wont work nexf time either...

So, one game in...No.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Duncan Keene (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 07:37

World Cup Hangover and Salarysins Shock are big factors in my opinion. I think the Salarysins players initially pulled together but the last couple of weeks with confirmed relegation has knocked them and everyone else for six.

I wouldnít rush to drop ďolderĒ (there really arenít many) players from the squad unless there are players clearly playing better than them. The only players to rush in to the squad are generational talents, obviously identifying those isnít always easy without hindsight. Iím very wary of media and fan bandwagons for players in their late 20s.

Clearly the squad is unbalanced and injuries to Vunipolaís, Tuilagi, Joe Cokanasinga have left a hole.

I agree with not panicking and changing the squad after one game, itís Lancasteresque to flip flop around like that and the players donít know where they stand. Another poor performance at the weekend and I think Jones has to make more decisive changes.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: TonyMay (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 07:58

Daly is a better full back than he is a wing.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 10:41

The English RFU have created a situation where good premiership coaches know they won't get a chance at the national job, they did to Dean Richards what the FA did to Brian Clough and pretty much the same Will Carlings "old f@rts" are still calling the shots. The reason I would like an English head coach is more to do with reward and improving our game at all levels, if we treated our players in same poor way, Manu would not be playing for England, ditto quite a few more. Baxter should have been given the job, but he knows that the England job is a bit of a poisoned chalice now. There's a man doing an excellent job in the English Premiership who should also be in the frame...ÖÖÖÖÖ.and he's Irish, but at least he knows the players and our type of game. I'm no jingoistic Englishman, I'm only half English myself.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Stopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 10:52

Well they'll not be able to ignore Borthwick after we win everything for the next 5 seasons.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Elder (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 11:03

Didnít SA (and to a lesser extent England) demonstrate that you donít have to operate on a 4 year cycle to do well at RWC?
I think Jones makes some odd selections and even if they donít work sticks with them out of bloody mindedness, but 2 years prior to Japan our back row looked a real area of weakness- yet at the tournament they were probably the best unit there even with Billy below par.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Man from LA (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 13:10

Quote:
Duncan Keene
World Cup Hangover and Salarysins Shock are big factors in my opinion. I think the Salarysins players initially pulled together but the last couple of weeks with confirmed relegation has knocked them and everyone else for six.
I wouldnít rush to drop ďolderĒ (there really arenít many) players from the squad unless there are players clearly playing better than them. The only players to rush in to the squad are generational talents, obviously identifying those isnít always easy without hindsight. Iím very wary of media and fan bandwagons for players in their late 20s.

Clearly the squad is unbalanced and injuries to Vunipolaís, Tuilagi, Joe Cokanasinga have left a hole.

I agree with not panicking and changing the squad after one game, itís Lancasteresque to flip flop around like that and the players donít know where they stand. Another poor performance at the weekend and I think Jones has to make more decisive changes.

I'd agree about Salarysins, Farrell looks like he's just worked out all of his medals are tainted and worthless.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Stopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 13:34

And a few quid lighter than he'd otherwise be?

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 17:58

Quote:
Brownian Motion
I think it's insanely hysterical that people are questioning Eddie's position as head coach. WE JUST GOT TO A WORLD CUP FINAL, OUR FIRST IN 12 YEARS. Hell, it's the joint-second performance of the country in the tournament.

To be clear, I wasn't calling for Edward's head in the OP just some clarity/a decision re whether he'll be coaching England come the next RWC.

Or maybe he's been offered another 2 years on his contract but fancies the Lions gig instead?



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Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Yorkie (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 18:06

Quote:
Mrs H
You donít just suddenly chuck out all the older players after one bad game. 2 if youíre counting the WC final.
Knee jerk reactionism..

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, there are so few meaningful Invitational games between now and the next RWC that you have to move forward with some youngsters at some point in time. Sooner rather than later for me, particularly in the positions/roles highlighted in the OP where we have little or no support coming through.



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Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Mrs H (IP Logged)
Date: 04 February, 2020 18:53

Summer tour in Japan this year would be ideal to develop up and coming talent?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2020 18:56 by Mrs H.

Re: England moving forward towards the next RWC.
Posted by: Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
Date: 05 February, 2020 22:51

Quote:
TonyMay
Daly is a better full back than he is a wing.

Come on ...he's not that bad on the wing :-)

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