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Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: AB (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 08:13

Yet again another nasty article in today’s paper.
No substantiation and typical of this nasty rag.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: whyisitnevereasy (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 08:22

I think this is the link to the article to which AB refers

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: To Mega Therion (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 09:31

"four-times Premiership winners" WWTC?



https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMpKHV_mtVeNi9mSYLq3K1i9NvBslw7N8R4UvEbLchopTFrP2k
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Waldo (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 09:54

2019 seems to be a great year to be a lawyer !

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: JO'G (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 11:46

I'm surprised by this line

if they are found guilty of having flouted the £7million cap

surely the offense is to have 'BROKEN' the cap. Flouting , but not breaking would be irrelevant. Smaks of 'we aren't goint to play with you any more because your Cap Officer is too good and sees legitimte holes that our guys can't see.'

In much the same way our attacking coaches see holes in other club's defences other coaches can't see and our defensive coaches seeing identifying markers in other club's attacking moves and blockeing them. You are too good and we aren't playing with you any more coz we keep losing

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: BramleyRoad (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 12:19

Gotta love (hate?) these mealy mouthed journalists. ‘It is UNDERSTOOD’ that they have a job to do but...



Supporting Saracens for 52 years

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Barty II (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 12:24

Surely it can't just be me thinking that while the Daily Mail is sensationalizing and muck-raking as usual, we might still have something of a case to answer? Are we all really that one-eyed?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Primavesi2 (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 12:28

It does not seem too far fetched that other premiership chairman have been discussing the issue and agreeing potential next steps to various outcomes. In fact I would find it strange if that was not the case.

Not sure exactly why you think the article is "nasty".

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 12:52

Quote:
Barty II
Surely it can't just be me thinking that while the Daily Mail is sensationalizing and muck-raking as usual, we might still have something of a case to answer? Are we all really that one-eyed?

I think pretty much everyone on here has openly said if we're found guilty we should be punished, I don't think there's any arguement there

I do however hope that the team aren't stupid enough to have done anything underhand so blantantly as registering NW as a director in the companies. Surely if you wanted it hidden, NW would give the cash to someone else and register them as directors instead of himself. It certainly wouldn't be as obvious (though it would be immediatly obvious that it's dodgy if discovered).

That being said it's all above my pay grade, so I await the outcome with a mild sense of nervous-ness

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Waldo (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 13:47

So on the flip side of the coin- should Saracens be found innocent of any wrong doing I assume the other "topflight" clubs are not going to appeal that decision ?

I very much doubt that will happen !

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Sara'sman (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 14:59

Quote:
Barty II
Surely it can't just be me thinking that while the Daily Mail is sensationalizing and muck-raking as usual, we might still have something of a case to answer? Are we all really that one-eyed?

Disappointingly I think a few of us are, perhaps in part as a reaction to the more vitriolic posts condeming all things Saracens that are too often found elsewhere. If the boot were on the other foot I think most would hope that the press would keep up the pressure for a public resolution. Without any public statement it seems to me that the Mail have no alternative other than speculation in order to keep the issue live.

I've refrained from commenting so far but it seems to me that many of our critics conflate several issues. Is our dominance good for the game? Have we acted contrary to the current regulations? And should the regulations be amended? Whilst well intended, talk of "the spirit of regulations" is a red herring; regulations need clear definition since their spirit will vary from person to person.

I'm of the opinion that any club dominating our game for a lengthy period as are we is, on balance, bad for the game, though when I stated this on Tigers' board several disagreed! However I don't see it as an issue that we should be expected to "solve"; it is the for other clubs and the PRL to address, which they appear to be considering. Talk of "a level playing field" is nonsense - should Leicester be restricted to 10k crowds like us, Quins reduce their seat prices to Sale's equivalent, Falcon's catchment area reduced to the size of Bristol's, Exeter's sponsorship income matched to Worcester's? The Cap is there to stop clubs from spending at unsustainable levels* and was raised to ensure that our best can compete in Europe and prevent players from flooding to France. It acts as a reducer of dominance too. [*To my understanding, even Nigel's investment is comfortably covered - by the facilities built from scatch and the CVC valueation placed on the Premiership and hence each club.]

It strikes me that there are three possibilities wrt the co-investments:
* they break the regulations if there is any form of agreement that Nigel will walk away and leave his money behind
* they are legitimate support for players' post career lives with Nigel a genuine partner, cleared with the Salary Cap Manager
* insufficient detail was supplied to/sought by the SCM and it is unclear which of the above applies or where any fault lies.
It would seem that the third point is the current issue and that there may be good arguments on all sides.

To those wishing to ban future co-investments (often citing the "spirit" of regulations) I would suggest that provided they are legitimate in the sense that (Nigel's) money does not end up belonging to the player, then his (and others') expertise should be available to his players. Otherwise where will this ban on support end - and why? And how will it be enforced? Many players at all clubs throughout the history of rugby have benefitted from advice and support from personal contacts through their clubs - isn't Quins current status built on this very foundation from the amatuer era?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Primavesi2 (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 15:41

A very well balanced comment Sara'sman.

My take (and I have no more info than anyone else) is that I don't believe for a second that we intentionally cheated the cap or that any money passed from Nigel to the players via these schemes. What I suspect is that we found a grey area and exploited it - namely that the players were effectively receiving Nigel´s investment advice, which normally would carry some economic value, for free and that this was not specifically specified as being within the cap and hence we will be ok.

If that is the case, then the fallout will be very interesting. Will the premiership try to close that loophole? If they did they would surely face accusations of working against the interests of players post retirement planning.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: KevT (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 17:48

If this was the first time that there had been issues with Saracens then I am sure a lighter touch from other clubs might be appropriate. But the previous allegations that allegedly involved Saracens and Bath before saw the regulations re-written and tightened. All clubs agreed to them. We also have a new stakeholder in CVC. As rugby supporters, all we ask is a level playing field. If Saracens have broken rules which they agreed to then the PRL cannot bend again. They have to throw their force behind these rules and if they won’t abide then they should play their rugby in the lower divisions. In the game, persistent infringement brings a yellow card and aggressive behaviour results in a red card. Let’s apply the same laws to the salary cap.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: Old Curmudgeon (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 18:02

I wonder at the amount of vitriol being spilled over this and the ever growing suspicion for me is that a publication that has spent an enormous amount of time , effort and money in their efforts to shed light on the disgraceful chicanery, collusion and corrupt behaviour of a man determined to safeguard the futures of players once they end their careers either by a cataclysmic injury or through the normal processes of time, is afraid that the crusade is running out of steam and needs rekindling.

It is plain to see that the only reason that Saracens are successful is because of corruption and false accounting because there is no way on earth that this bunch of upstarts could achieve so much through hard work, team respect and sheer skill instilled by a coaching and academy set up that others can only envy and despise.

For some this will never be put to bed, envy and jealousy grind into their very beings and should we allow ourselves to be dragged too deeply into this we will become the same..

Come the day when we are no longer the best about, hopefully we will behave in a better fashion than the current yesterdays clubs and their followers.

In closing, if anyone thinks that trolling me, doubting my parentage or name calling will affect me in any way, do not waste your time. It is easy to throw mud in the hope that some sticks so let us see what the report says shall we.

Not that I expect the zealots to accept it if it does not suit their purposes. No one likes us, we don’t care

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 18:47

One way or another a resolution/decision can't come soon enough IMO. Let the dice fall where they may.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: myleftboot (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 19:08

Right so.... If we are guilty it would be a first offence (re, my favourite McAfferty quote....) and similar to Quins, we would not have intentionally broken the cap. In which case financial penalty, as per Quins and Pests precedent is likely the worst case?

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: paulglynn (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 20:38

Let's look at it this way IF we are kicked out what club has the room for 8 England (7 lions) internationals if they wanted to move on it seems to me to only affect the England team

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: ROLLO (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 21:18

paulglynn which other club could afford such talent and keep under the cap?
I don't know if rules have or have not been broken, but even the most one eyed Sarries supporter ( and we can all be one eyed about our club ) must wonder how such a group can be assembled for £7 million plus two marquee players.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 21:29

ROLLO Owen Slot who is one of the most anti-Sarries reporters out there tried to cost the team based on what he knew where market rates from other clubs and came to the conclusion initially that it was doable. Then he wasn't so sure when he was reminded that there were NI payments etc but he never took into account the lack of agents fees and the very real likelihood that a number of those top players will be on less than you'd need to pay them at another club because of the high chance of silverware at Sarries. I honestly don't know but I am not yet tipped to thinking that it isn't manageable given the above qualifications.

Re: Daily Mail muckraking
Posted by: GazzaFez (IP Logged)
Date: 18 September, 2019 22:35

Once again I'd like to point out the abject failure of the Salary Cap Manager in this whole affair and this criticism is irrespective of our guilt or innocence. The fact is that he has been asleep on the job. It has been clearly stated that Saracens informed him of the co-investments. The level of detail of the disclosure (s) is also irrelevant. The registered companies concerned in the investigation have ludicrously transparent names (Vunprop, Faz Investments etc). Any junior compliance officer (for this is essentially what the job entails) should have been all over this in a matter of days at the very most. If there was even the slightest hint of non-compliance he should have raised a red flag immediately or at the very least demanded more information. If it transpired THEN that these arrangements were possibly in beach of the rules he should have said so there and then so they could be stopped without further transgression. The fact is clear that none of this happened at all. He either did not follow up on the original disclosures through incompetence or he thought we were not in breach. It is simply not acceptable to lurch into action on the back of a newspaper investigation months/years after the event.

I state clearly that the above criticism is irrespective of the final outcome of the cap investigation, but the SCM himself has already been found severely lacking in my view. This has gone on far too and should never have reached this stage in the first place. Had he been on the ball it would not have. Six months later and we still have no further statement from him. Pathetic.

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