Current Page: 15 of 18
Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: fatheralice (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 16:49

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 17:06

Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Right back at you, Hogg isn't elligible to be the First excluded player under 3.3 (I) until he's been at the club for 2yrs.

A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:

(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or

(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B ) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or

(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/01/2020 17:30 by Sarriebone.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 17:21

Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
... You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works ...

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Well certainly one of us looks foolish. I think we might differ on which ...

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 17:27

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.

It's hard to discuss this without hard facts, but Farrell's salary has been quoted at £750K. If that's the case then it is £100Ks off.

Quote:
Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

Not sure what to make of this. If both parties agree to it I don't see the problem.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 17:43

Quote:
Poking With Sticks
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.

It's hard to discuss this without hard facts, but Farrell's salary has been quoted at £750K. If that's the case then it is £100Ks off.

Are you seriously using Farrell as your basis for comparison?
Look at the two hookers for comparison as one is a starter and one the bench. Are you really suggesting that when LCD renewed (at the same time as Nowell and Slade only the former of whom was a regular International) that he accepted a salary of £2-300K? Or that guys like Francis, Moon, Williams etc are earning £300K or less. I guess it's possible but it seems both unlikely and out of line with other salaries that have been made public.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 17:54

If it helps:
- Slade is apparently (according to a list of highest paid Prem players) on £450k, Hogg £400k (and Nowell £350k).
- Slade is likely to be marquee player 1, Hogg marquee player 2 (has to come from outside the Prem)
- Hogg probably took a marquee slot from Nic White (assume £300-350k) so White’s salary would have counted towards the cap this season
- White is off to Oz, so that frees up a chunk of cap allowance for Gray who will probably be on a similar amount (Greg Holmes is also off (retiring) and as a former international tighthead will have been on ok money)

This is all the usual juggling that goes on to stay compliant. Given Exeter had only 6 players in the recent World Cup, it is probably safe to say that Exeter is not full of current internationals, who would typically command a premium. Sarries had 16 involved (although Figallo might have been injured after being named in the squad).

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Gaz (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 18:06

Tigers fan in peace.

Just to say that I admire the Saracens fans' quiet dignity in the face of some unwarranted trolling.

The people at the top of your club who perpetrated the salary cap breaches, and those who knew and allowed it to happen, are worthy of our contempt.

The fans, who have been shafted by their club, are not.

Hope next season heralds a new start for Saracens, and I look forward to seeing you at Welford Road in years to come.



Threatened by shadows at night,
And exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Exeforever (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 20:13

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

Quote from the "Key rules" for this season's Heineken Cup:

2.4 The clubs ranked 1 to 4 will have home advantage for the quarter-finals as follows:...

No mention of capacity. Anecdotally it is believed that had Exeter been facing an Irish side then the game would have had to be played in a larger stadium to accommodate the away supporters but as it is Northampton it can be played at Sandy Park. Last season's Prem S/F was played to a full house but we have expanded since then.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 20:19

Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 20:28

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

The strict 15k capacity rule was dropped a couple of years ago. Saracens played Glasgow in the 2017 QF and had to get in extra seating to meet the requirement. Attendance was nearly 15,000. Fast forward a couple of years and when Sarries played Glasgow in the 2019 QF, EPCR confirmed that Sarries didn’t need to get extra seating. So the match attendance was 11,000. Surely you noticed that AZP was hosting these games?

There are quite a few complaints about other fans coming onto the Sarries board. Maybe we could all cut down on baseless innuendo?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: fatheralice (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 20:55

Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Right back at you, Hogg isn't elligible to be the First excluded player under 3.3 (I) until he's been at the club for 2yrs.

A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:

(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or

(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B ) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or

(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.

I take full responsibility for my administrative error, and with humility must accept the embarrassment that now comes.
My post was made in good faith, but perhaps said the wrong thing for the right reasons, but it is important to stress that it was not deliberate. I will be adopting robust governance measures for any future postings.

(Sm133)

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: LutonS (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 21:37

Was it my imagination or did Smally say the requested audit was to go back 10 years? In his BT interview bith Martin Bayfield pre game.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 21:37

Well done fatheralice. Takes class to eat humble pie and admit you were wrong........

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 22:49

Quote:
Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Thanks for the correction Sarriebone. Last QF I was at was Saints a few years ago and all I remember was we didn't need the expanded capacity as we'd played them like 6 times that season already and everyone was thoroughly bored of the fixture. I hadn't appreciated that it had changed and responded to a report in a paper saying "despite Sandy Park capacity being 13500 or something they would be allowed to hold the QF there with no expansion.

Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 23:10

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Are you seriously using Farrell as your basis for comparison?

Well...yes. He's almost certainly one of our highest paid players.

Quote:
Look at the two hookers for comparison as one is a starter and one the bench. Are you really suggesting that when LCD renewed (at the same time as Nowell and Slade only the former of whom was a regular International) that he accepted a salary of £2-300K? Or that guys like Francis, Moon, Williams etc are earning £300K or less. I guess it's possible but it seems both unlikely and out of line with other salaries that have been made public.

We don't know what LCD signed for but there's no reason to think it's much more than Slade (if more it is). I'm almost certain Moon's on £300K or less. He came through the academy and probably never expected an England call up this late in the day. I doubt he was looking to jump to another club to further that dream. I can imagine Williams and Francis are on £300K at least.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 08:45

Quote:
LutonS
Was it my imagination or did Smally say the requested audit was to go back 10 years? In his BT interview bith Martin Bayfield pre game.

That's what I heard.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Exeforever (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 11:04

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Thanks for the correction Sarriebone. Last QF I was at was Saints a few years ago and all I remember was we didn't need the expanded capacity as we'd played them like 6 times that season already and everyone was thoroughly bored of the fixture. I hadn't appreciated that it had changed and responded to a report in a paper saying "despite Sandy Park capacity being 13500 or something they would be allowed to hold the QF there with no expansion.

Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

You're welcome Blackheath Sarrie. There's so much innuendo and rumour circulating at present that a simple misunderstanding is not surprising.

FWIW one of the advantages of being the only remaining members' club is that, had it been us breaking the cap, I do believe that the membership would have rallied round and demanded the resignations of the entire board but, like you I would continue to support the club that I have supported for the last 50 years. Clubs are bigger than the current first XV or board of directors and I hope that you get things sorted out and are able to work your way back on an honest footing.

That said I am disappointed beyond measure that Wray (and others???) put winning above all else and have dragged rugby's reputation through the mud.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 12:19

I've just listened to the Rugby Union Weekly podcast. - Saracens special. Not something I usually listen to but felt the need for obvious reasons. It included an interview with Brendan Venter. Some interesting comments made:

1) Brendan reckons Saracens were over the cap by around £500K. The £2M being quoted is completely false. He said because Salaries are measured from July to end of June Saracens needed to offload players with a combined salary of £2M to get within the cap this season - as we are now in January

2) Brad was quoted as saying the squad would stay together. (Personally I just cannot see this particularly in a Lions year)

3) Ugo Monye (not the best I know) saying that it would be easier for Farrell to stay than a Ben Earls or Max Mallins as they would be giving up on their England hopes for the best part of 3 years

Also on the podcast was Laura Scott who broke the initial story. The general comment was PRL were not doing their job properly if it took a journalist to uncover the cheating. Confirming what most of us have said.

Anyway it's probably worth a listen (if you can face it)

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 13:25

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

No big deal - variety of sources out there, some inevitably not 100% accurate.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Yorki (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 22:01

Yorkshire Carnegie support here.
I am genuinely sorry to see your club troubles and impending change in status , I have always enjoyed watching Saracens play on TV, we all knew Saracens where over the salary cap but that meant they were the only English club that could compete in Europe on equal basis. Rugby Unions financial affairs are in mess in general and the difference between Saracens and the other clubs was that Saracens were successful so they attracted scrutiny. All great clubs have dips and debacles but it will not be too long before you are back competing at the top again.

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