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Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 07:46

Quote:
myleftboot
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Of course it could be a lot more than £2m. One has to wonder why Saracens allegedly refused a formal audit. More to hide?
I understand you spent 50p on shaved monkey porn. Until you prove otherwise it appears its a fact. You love shaved monkeys. Congratulations.

I am happy for you to send auditors to review my porn collection. I'm confident that they will find all the monkeys are suitably hirsute. Now why won't Saracens allow scrutiny of their accounts?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 08:03

Quote:
Bram1ey_Road
So I sincerely hope that one day youíll get over yourself and realise that itís not all about you!
Perhaps the National Team warrants a mention?
Or maybe the players??
Are you capable of wider thoughts?

Wow! Sounds like you still think there's something special about Saracens.

Perhaps you should recognise it's not all about you. Saracens cheating has hurt every club and every fan. Yes you are hurting. Join the club. We've all been hurting for 5 years.

Why do England warrant a mention? Do you really buy the line that England need Saracens to do their training for them? In the long term a truly competitive league with the best players spread around will lead to more players competing in Europe and getting exposure to the highest standards. In the short term the RFU will adjust their self imposed rules to allow them use any players they want even if they move overseas

I have sympathy for the lower paid players and those still in your academy who may be locked into contracts that force them to stay. The high profile players who have been paid above market rates and accepted dodgy below the table deals without declaring them? They will be fine. Saracens need to shed them next year to fit in the cap. They are good players so they will be in demand. Maybe they will only be paid normal salaries next year but that's still a good wage.

What are your wider thoughts?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 08:25

plzd I think you make some valid points and I hope that the new Saracens free league gives you the convenience in its fairness and joy that you have been missing. I also hope that if/when Saracens come back up they can operate on under those same rules and you may even be able to enjoy seeing them play in the same league or at least not have it make you understandably unhappy. All the best for next season.

Quote:
Marlow Nick
Why do England warrant a mention? Do you really buy the line that England need Saracens to do their training for them?

You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

Would the National team achieved the same success without those Saracens players and coaches? or with those same Saracens players but spread over different clubs? Impossible to say for sure but pretty easy to point to the spine of the team playing together; 2, 5, 8, 10 being a major advantage for England. Ditto that those players had been exposed to the top level of domestic rugby continuously. Add to that that Saracens effectively sub teams like Wasps who provide little or no National talent in addition to losing out in cap allocation by having Internationals and I think you can see there are some issues.

None of that makes the cheating alright but I'd hope that it's something that's looked at as well as it is actively discouraging the promotion and retention of EQP International talent right now.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Westy68 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 08:30

If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?

Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

This is a genuine question as I donít the answer, not sure anyone knows the answer.

I also would like to say to the Saracens supporters who are truly upset with what Sarries have done. You have my Sympathy as this cannot be easy for you.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 08:51

Quote:
Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

Simple answer seems to be yes. Unless further issues come to light I believe that the relegation confirmed yesterday is the punishment given ahead of time after the realisation that the club will be over cap come the end of the year.

My theory, but I have no facts, is that PRLs own rules make cap compliance very hard in this scenario. Terminated contracts (with possible attached severance) are counted in the cap so it actually costs you to cut cap which is madness. As an example. Say that Saracens were £500K over cap and Player A is on £500K even in the best case scenario where he is out of contract at the end of the season paying him £500K to terminate his contract and so make him unavailable to the club for this season would still result in his salary being on the books so you'd have lost a player but still be over. If he has a two season contract you may need to find £1M or a % thereof. So you'd be releasing a player from the squad to becomes cap compliant and end up being even more over the cap.

In this scenario the only viable solutions to get in cap this season seem to be terminating contracts of injured players in agreement with them and the insurance company. Tricky if the player doesn't actually want to retire unless they are happy to do a Steve Thompson and return the insurance money if they start playing again? Loaning players out as injury cover to other clubs who would then pick up the salaries, again you'd need the players agreement. Having players loaned or signed for other clubs mid season obviously need players agreement and as importantly the other club need cap allowance (anyone else interested in Jamie Roberts, one of Baths most expensive players, signing for a SA club mid season?) Lastly an option for the players, some or all, to take a salary reduction. This is the option I am a bit surprised hasn't happened but tbf there are ongoing talks with the players and they may also be disillusioned by the current state of affairs.

So it can actually be quite hard to cut cap mid season.
My guess is PRLs feeling is whilst Saracens squad will remain over cap it will effect the league equally? and as Saracens no longer have anything to gain from this season in the Premiership it shouldn't unbalance things too much. That's my take although it may not be right.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Vespulavulgaris (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 09:12

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

I think you have this the wrong way round. You should be asking why it is that one club has been providing most of the England set-up. Why were they in the position to be able to do that? What was the wider impact of that on the game as a whole? And did it help us win the World Cup? Then ask yourself why it is that other clubs have felt the need to take such actions in order to feel they have a chance of being able to compete.

Quote:
Would the National team achieved the same success without those Saracens players and coaches? or with those same Saracens players but spread over different clubs? Impossible to say for sure but pretty easy to point to the spine of the team playing together; 2, 5, 8, 10 being a major advantage for England. Ditto that those players had been exposed to the top level of domestic rugby continuously. Add to that that Saracens effectively sub teams like Wasps who provide little or no National talent in addition to losing out in cap allocation by having Internationals and I think you can see there are some issues.

This feels very much like saying that because a team we all support benefited from Sarrie's cheating then we should accept it. I'd argue the very opposite.

This situation has tainted not just Sarries and the leagues they play in, but also the national team and all the success they have had over the last half decade or so. If it means we have to step backwards in order to rebuild then I'm ok with that.

I would much rather watch England lose than know they won because they benefited from cheating. This is a scandal that has poisoned the game and has to be addressed root and branch.

As to the comment about Sarries subbing Wasps it feels a little harsh when players like Loz, Billy, and Daly came through our ranks only to end up playing for you. If the rumours are to be believed then it was only club loyalty that stopped you signing Launchbury as well.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: ComeOnSarries (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:20

If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Roger G (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:33

Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.

Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.

Whoever came up with that figure, and the deadline to prove meeting it, will have know it was impossible without infringing contract and employment law, or major players volunteering to leave (why would they). So, as it was an impossible task, I can understand why Sarries would decline to engage with the other demands (e.g. forensic audit) with no hope of a better outcome. Hopefully with relegation, and a year or two (or more, or maybe for ever) outside the prem, and with the chance to build a completetly new, and palpable "clean" management team, Sarries can rejoin the fold with a clean slate as and when (and if) performances and admin hurdles allow.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:35

Quote:
blackheath
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

I think I've been consistent in commending the quality of Saracens coaching and the clubs commitment to invest in facilities, support etc. The original poster appeared to be claiming that Saracen's fall will have a significant negative impact on England's future and seemed to imply that this somehow excuses what has been done. I disagree on both counts. England will do just fine. There is no excuse.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: ukms (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:36

Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

You might be missing the point and perhaps still in a state of partial denial ....If Sarries were over the cap last season and nothing changes in the squad itís then highly likely they are still over .... why shouldnít they be subject of an audit or be punished ?

As for the co investments .... do you seriously believe this is the only reason Sarries were over ? If it was you wouldnít be playing in the championship next season.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Florida (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:43

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

Simple answer seems to be yes. Unless further issues come to light I believe that the relegation confirmed yesterday is the punishment given ahead of time after the realisation that the club will be over cap come the end of the year.

My theory, but I have no facts, is that PRLs own rules make cap compliance very hard in this scenario. Terminated contracts (with possible attached severance) are counted in the cap so it actually costs you to cut cap which is madness. As an example. Say that Saracens were £500K over cap and Player A is on £500K even in the best case scenario where he is out of contract at the end of the season paying him £500K to terminate his contract and so make him unavailable to the club for this season would still result in his salary being on the books so you'd have lost a player but still be over. If he has a two season contract you may need to find £1M or a % thereof. So you'd be releasing a player from the squad to becomes cap compliant and end up being even more over the cap.

In this scenario the only viable solutions to get in cap this season seem to be terminating contracts of injured players in agreement with them and the insurance company. Tricky if the player doesn't actually want to retire unless they are happy to do a Steve Thompson and return the insurance money if they start playing again? Loaning players out as injury cover to other clubs who would then pick up the salaries, again you'd need the players agreement. Having players loaned or signed for other clubs mid season obviously need players agreement and as importantly the other club need cap allowance (anyone else interested in Jamie Roberts, one of Baths most expensive players, signing for a SA club mid season?) Lastly an option for the players, some or all, to take a salary reduction. This is the option I am a bit surprised hasn't happened but tbf there are ongoing talks with the players and they may also be disillusioned by the current state of affairs.

So it can actually be quite hard to cut cap mid season.
My guess is PRLs feeling is whilst Saracens squad will remain over cap it will effect the league equally? and as Saracens no longer have anything to gain from this season in the Premiership it shouldn't unbalance things too much. That's my take although it may not be right.

Players signing for other clubs mid season would have worked, but doesn't sound like any clubs had space / were willing to take them in. Loaning players out isn't an option, you can loan 3 and you have to inform the salary cap manager within 28 days of the start of the season.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Florida (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:48

Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

PRL aren't changing their process mid season.

Section 4.9 subsection a of this year's regs states the SCM can, at any time, instruct the investigators to conduct an audit if they suspect a breach.

I would assume the other clubs haven't given them reason to suspect s breach and so they have no reason to start an audit.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Sarriebone (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 10:49

Quote:
Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.

My best guess would be that it could potentially be the investments/loans that haven't been paid back yet. £650k x 3yrs, unable to wrap up the investments quickly enough to satisfy the other shareholder's demands of cutting back that amount by the end of the months leaves us in the situation we're in. As I said only a guess though

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 11:07

[quote Vespulavulgaris]
I think you have this the wrong way round. You should be asking why it is that one club has been providing most of the England set-up. Why were they in the position to be able to do that? What was the wider impact of that on the game as a whole? And did it help us win the World Cup?[quote Vespulavulgaris]

We didn't win the RWC so no but for me it's pretty clear to see how it has benefited England. You say you'd prefer that not to be the case.
As to the rest historically a few teams have always supplied the bulk of the England squad whether that's been Leicester, Wasps, Bath, etc there's an obvious benefit of picking players and units that are familiar with each other. Traditionally I'd guess one (or a few) clubs provide the talent because they success tends to attract success and good coaching even if the club isn't cheating. Looks at the successful Leicester or Wasps squad and their Internationals and how they kept them for the duration of their golden years without any cap issues? Better management or has there always been an issue at the top of the game?
If Jones was a different, better? selector the England team could easily have had 7 or 8 Chiefs in it over the past seasons, I think they had 6 at one point? Would that have been wrong too if they were keeping them legally? I note for all the huffing and puffing from them they are retaining Williams just as they did with Nowell, Slade and LCD when they said they wouldn't be able to keep them all in cap. Which big players or England Internationals have left them in recent seasons? So they have seemingly done something similar legally. Sarries brought most of their players through from Academy or as talented young players from other clubs like yourselves. If they have invested 5 plus seasons in developing them why should they have to move them onto other clubs? A proper EPS payment would mean they or any other team wouldn't have to.

[quote Vespulavulgaris]Then ask yourself why it is that other clubs have felt the need to take such actions in order to feel they have a chance of being able to compete[/quote]
Sorry I don't understand that.

This feels very much like saying that because a team we all support benefited from Sarrie's cheating then we should accept it. I'd argue the very opposite[/quote]
I don't know if you read my whole post but I made it pretty clear that it isn't about legitimising or balancing cheating but rather saying that in my opinion it is something the National team have benefited from but also that it is an issue going forward if your International team is going to be drawn significantly from a couple or maybe three teams as has been the case historically.

[quote Vespulavulgaris]the comment about Sarries subbing Wasps it feels a little harsh when players like Loz, Billy, and Daly came through our ranks only to end up playing for you. If the rumours are to be believed then it was only club loyalty that stopped you signing Launchbury as well.[/quote]
I highly doubt the Launchbury rumour and whilst I appreciate Wasps have lost significant players to Saracens and that must hurt I honestly think you're deluding yourself if you think either of Lozo or Daly would have stayed at Wasps. If it wasn't Sarries it would have been someone else. If that's too blunt for you then take a club that Sarries haven't recruited a player from recently who are providing no or few Internationals and ask why they, or Leicester or Quins in recent seasons should sub them?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Chris1850 (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 11:34

Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

If Saracens are so open and honest, how come they have refused to submit their books to a full audit, preferring to take relegation instead? If they are genuinely remorseful as they now claim to be, they should be completely open and honest with the PRL. Yet still they refuse. What are others to think? Given the blatant cheating that has already been exposed, by refusing to open the books they simply leave themselves open to further speculation and allegations.

Genuine Sarries supporters deserve much better. Whatever good Wray may have done over the years in the community etc, his legacy is not only tainted, it is now positively foul and for the good of the club and the game in general, he should quit straight away.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 11:35

Surprising as it may seem a lot of supporters of club rugby aren't that interested in national sides and their club comes first.

People who support other clubs who complied with the rules that Saracens signed up to and then flouted are rightly angry at the way Saracens' management behaved. Most have sympathy for the supporters who were lied to in exactly the same way as everyone else was lied to. Where they struggle is with the idea that somehow there is a vendetta against Saracens based on jealousy. I understand the desire to circle the wagons and lash out. I really do. But the source of all this mess rests with the management, not other supporters, not other clubs, not PRL (although it's hardly covered itself in glory). Supporters' ire should be directed at the club's management who have abused your trust

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 11:56

Quote:
Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.



Whoever came up with that figure, and the deadline to prove meeting it, will have know it was impossible without infringing contract and employment law, or major players volunteering to leave (why would they). So, as it was an impossible task, I can understand why Sarries would decline to engage with the other demands (e.g. forensic audit) with no hope of a better outcome. Hopefully with relegation, and a year or two (or more, or maybe for ever) outside the prem, and with the chance to build a completetly new, and palpable "clean" management team, Sarries can rejoin the fold with a clean slate as and when (and if) performances and admin hurdles allow.

Perhaps those that set the deadline did so in the belief that Nigel was telling the truth when he says Sarries were compliant this season ?

You canít have it both ways

We comply, therefore no problem.

Oh no we donít, so you canít set a potentially impossible deadline.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 15:51

Quote:
Florida
oaning players out isn't an option, you can loan 3 and you have to inform the salary cap manager within 28 days of the start of the season.

Thanks for the clarification.
Do you know when the PRL vote changed from unanimous to majority? Its not been the case before now afaik.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 16:19

Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
I note for all the huffing and puffing from them they are retaining Williams just as they did with Nowell, Slade and LCD when they said they wouldn't be able to keep them all in cap. Which big players or England Internationals have left them in recent seasons? So they have seemingly done something similar legally.

The thing is, Exeter haven't had any nailed on starters. Look at just the recent England reps for each team. Nailed on starters in bold:

Sarries: Mako, Billy, Itoje, Kruis, Spencer, Wigglesworth, Daly, Lozowski, Farrell, George, Singleton, Isiekwe.
Exeter: LCD, Slade, Nowell, Williams, Hepburn, Moon, Simmonds, Armand, Maunder, Devoto.

You could make an argument for bolding LCD on the bench. The likes of Isiekwe, Maunder, Armand, Singleton and Devoto are irrelevant to the discussion - they have one or two caps and that won't inflate their worth much. Nowell and Slade signed new deals in 2018 reported in local press as being £350K and £450K respectively. Being a potential England start makes you more expensive, but not in the league of a first on the team-sheet, world class player.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Posted by: BlackheathSarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 19 January, 2020 16:34

Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

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