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Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Rupes (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 13:00

Quote:
derbyshire fan
So Rupes you want to ban Nigel from every home game in perpetuity, but still take his (or at least his family’s money) to keep the club afloat. How immoral is that?

DerbyshireFan - sorry, but that's not what I've said. What you call out is what I think the HUGE issue the club is facing, specifically the financing of the club. Given what has happened, I don't believe we should still take his (or his family's money). That obviously has massive ramifications, but if the club (as per the Chairman's statement) is truly interested in re-building trust and confidence then I don't think we can say "yes, it's happening" on the one hand and still have Nigel (or his family) involved. It's a really bad situation and it's not anyone's choice of action, but I feel that until there is a clean break then we're going to struggle to get that confidence or trust back.

I'm aware that's not a popular view btw, but taking the emotion out of it then I don't see another way forward.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: boomer! (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 13:09

Quote:
Neil-H
I know its a different scenario, but when Saints went down, our season tickets prices were reduced and anyone that purchased a season ticket then got a discount on season ticket when promoted back to premiership, think it was 20%
iirc?

There was also some very good old school rugby days out and some proper old rugby grounds and some decent food to!!... as one of the closest, do go to Goldington Rd, having a pint and just walk around the ground watching the rugby from where you want is refreshing change

I think youll find the opposition supporters will enjoy having your company and having players of the quality that you will have playing at their ground!


Nice post.

I am already thinking of the away weekend down to Cornwall for Pirates, and me and missus off to Jersey for that 'special' break.....and then me and the mates to Doncaster where I read on Twttr that the pies are really good.

And of course a visit to Bedford where it used to be a regular preseason visit for us.



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Waldo (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 13:58

Quote:
scrappydoo
Rugbypass also has us potentially joing the Pro14 in what they say would be two fingers to the rest of the Premiership. But did say if we took this root there would be no going back.

This is an interesting scenario - putting aside the logistics of it happening - CVC Have just bought a stake in the Pro 14 - so depending on how Toxic (or not) CVC view Saracens - them joining the Pro14 would inject some intrigue into the competition and this might just generate some revenue for CVC (TV rights etc) imagine Sarries taking on Leinster & Munster in a league game .

It could even be a toe in the water for a European League .

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Innings (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 14:22

Rupes.

Quote:
DerbyshireFan - sorry, but that's not what I've said. What you call out is what I think the HUGE issue the club is facing, specifically the financing of the club. Given what has happened, I don't believe we should still take his (or his family's money). That obviously has massive ramifications, but if the club (as per the Chairman's statement) is truly interested in re-building trust and confidence then I don't think we can say "yes, it's happening" on the one hand and still have Nigel (or his family) involved. It's a really bad situation and it's not anyone's choice of action, but I feel that until there is a clean break then we're going to struggle to get that confidence or trust back.
I'm aware that's not a popular view btw, but taking the emotion out of it then I don't see another way forward.




A moral stance. There are probably no buyers, no other source of income to pay anyone at all. The CVC money amounts to less than £10million, which would last for less than a year. It is illegal to trade as a company whilst insolvent, as this business would certainly be without the Wray family. Where does your suggestion take you?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 14:24

The club and fans will have to roll with the punches I am afraid.

However I would absolutely try to find a new owner... otherwise the brand will stay tarnished.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 14:27

Quote:
boomer!
Quote:
scrappydoo
Rugbypass also has us potentially joing the Pro14 in what they say would be two fingers to the rest of the Premiership. But did say if we took this root there would be no going back.

I like that idea.

Some of those French stadiums are superb. Their supporters are brill.

Lyon versus a damp, dank, & windy Exeter...….. No contest.

Er, you do know that Pro14 doesn't include France?

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: quin_jon (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 14:29

Quote:
boomer!
Quote:
scrappydoo
Rugbypass also has us potentially joing the Pro14 in what they say would be two fingers to the rest of the Premiership. But did say if we took this root there would be no going back.

I like that idea.

Some of those French stadiums are superb. Their supporters are brill.

Lyon versus a damp, dank, & windy Exeter...….. No contest.

Are you not getting the Pro14 confused with the Top14

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: maynas (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 14:35

Quote:
Sarriebone
RugbyPass have just published what they think our players will do :
Below list of players and, in brackets, teams or competitions they have been linked with, and whether they are likely to stay or go. This speculative list does not account for loans deals, that could see players take a year away from the club before returning in 21/22.

Likely stayers:
Owen Farrell (Lyon), Maro Itoje (Lyon), Jamie George, Jackson Wray, Brad Barritt, Ben Earl, Ben Spencer, Max Malins, Nick Isekwe,

Possible leavers:
Billy Vunipola (Lyon, Leicester Tigers), Mako Vunipola, Alex Goode, Jack Singleton, Rhys Carré (PRO14), Titi Lamositele


Likely leavers:
George Kruis (Japan), Richard Wigglesworth (Ealing), Michael Rhodes, Juan Figallo, Vincent Koch (Super Rugby/France), Nick Tompkins (PRO14), Callum Clark, Alex Lozowski (Bath), Matt Gallagher (Munster), Will Skelton (Super Rugby, France), Sean Maitland, Duncan Taylor, Elliot Daly, Alex Lewington, Ali Crossdale, Joe Gray, Joel Kpoku (Northampton Saints)

Confirmed leavers:
Liam Williams (Scarlets)


I suspect after yesterday there wont be a queue for poor injury hit Billy V

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 15:30

Quote:
Wilson Pickett
The club and fans will have to roll with the punches I am afraid.
However I would absolutely try to find a new owner... otherwise the brand will stay tarnished.

I fully understand the sentiment and probably wouldn't disagree but what kind of idiot would buy a rugby club? Nigel Wray has messed up everything (including his legacy) with the salary cap breaches but he has also sunk upwards of £50M of his own money in to the club. I can't imagine there are too many of those kind of benefactors around!

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 15:47

Does anyone know the situation with a club needing to be under the salary cap for at least 2 seasons before being able to be promoted to the Prem? This is a 'rule' quoted on the BBC (Ugo Monye, Chris Jones) podcast and I have heard it elsewhere. If the case then, on the assumption getting under the cap for this season is not do-able, doesn't that mean at least 2 seasons in the Championship?

It seems a significant factor but is currently under the radar. Or has someone mis-read something and there is no such clear rule?

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 16:28

Quote:
Rich.
Does anyone know the situation with a club needing to be under the salary cap for at least 2 seasons before being able to be promoted to the Prem? This is a 'rule' quoted on the BBC (Ugo Monye, Chris Jones) podcast and I have heard it elsewhere. If the case then, on the assumption getting under the cap for this season is not do-able, doesn't that mean at least 2 seasons in the Championship?
It seems a significant factor but is currently under the radar. Or has someone mis-read something and there is no such clear rule?

Would be nice to have some more information from our Board regarding what actually happened during their talks with PRL rather than the inadequate email we received (talks which were at one stage said to be "constructive". Did they come to any sort of agreement when they say they have accepted the "unprecedented measure of automatic relegation". Would our clever lawyers/PR people have agreed to jump into the abyss without a life jacket? Given what has happened this week absolutely anything is possible! Maybe we're going to join the Rugby Football League instead!

It also seems to me that PRL's regulations are on the fluid side! so I guess we will have to wait and see.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 16:31

Quote:
daz_71
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
The club and fans will have to roll with the punches I am afraid.
However I would absolutely try to find a new owner... otherwise the brand will stay tarnished.

I fully understand the sentiment and probably wouldn't disagree but what kind of idiot would buy a rugby club? Nigel Wray has messed up everything (including his legacy) with the salary cap breaches but he has also sunk upwards of £50M of his own money in to the club. I can't imagine there are too many of those kind of benefactors around!


Fastest growing sport in the US. American MLR contracts are rising fast. I think that’s where to target.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: #wolfpack (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 16:44

Just to be clear - 'coming under the cap this season' may still be possible. We have until 30 June 2020 to do so.

It wasn't possible to meet whatever demand was made of us within the timescales demanded of us - but that isn't the same thing.

Not least because presumably we haven't had any England credits yet for the 6N (as they haven't happened yet and we don't know which players will actually play), and we haven't had any injury credits yet (as we haven't had any season long injuries yet because we're only halfway through the season)!

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:04

Quote:
#wolfpack
Just to be clear - 'coming under the cap this season' may still be possible. We have until 30 June 2020 to do so.

This was something that Brendan alluded to on the Rugby Union Weekly podcast. He mentioned the injured players and Liam. As I have mentioned on the Salary Cap thread the £2M being banded about is a complete red herring according to Brendan. That was the figure of contracts they needed to lose before the end of Jan to get within the cap this season and wouldn't have included the injured players. ***

***All the above is of course if Brendan is correct. Not stating it as fact only what I heard him say

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:28

Yeah but if he correct and no other issues why not let the auditors in?

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: boomer! (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:50

Quote:
quin_jon
Quote:
boomer!
Quote:
scrappydoo
Rugbypass also has us potentially joing the Pro14 in what they say would be two fingers to the rest of the Premiership. But did say if we took this root there would be no going back.

I like that idea.

Some of those French stadiums are superb. Their supporters are brill.

Lyon versus a damp, dank, & windy Exeter...….. No contest.

Are you not getting the Pro14 confused with the Top14

Yes! (Sm80)



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Duncan Keene (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 17:53

Quote:
Rich.
Does anyone know the situation with a club needing to be under the salary cap for at least 2 seasons before being able to be promoted to the Prem? This is a 'rule' quoted on the BBC (Ugo Monye, Chris Jones) podcast and I have heard it elsewhere. If the case then, on the assumption getting under the cap for this season is not do-able, doesn't that mean at least 2 seasons in the Championship?
It seems a significant factor but is currently under the radar. Or has someone mis-read something and there is no such clear rule?

This question probably needs a thread on it's own really. It's a huge issue that needs clarifying and not just for Saracens.

For the Championship clubs. If you can't get promoted next year then they have a golden opportunity to invest in their squads as it would be a year without one of the Premiership 13 and our bigger budgets, parachute payments etc. On the other hand if you can get promoted, then they have a year where they know even more than ever they are very unlikely to overhaul the team previously in the Premiership.

For the Premiership clubs. If you can't get promoted next year, then next year is the biggest relegation fight ever, because the year after the relegated team won't have the usual tour around the Championship and then promotion, they will have to fight head to head with Saracens for promotion, probably lose out and have two years in the Championship.

I suspect that once it dawns on the other Premiership chairman that this rule would most likely mean one of their clubs spending two years in the Championship as well as Saracens then this rule will cease to exist. We shall see, as i say it clearly needs clarifying very soon.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 18:03

I have to believe that Sarries and PRL have agreed that we have already ‘done our time’ for this season’s cap breaches and therefore the slate would be wiped clean for 2019/20 when/if we are being considered for promotion to the Premiership after one season. And that then allows this season to sort out buying out contracts, unwinding joint investments and any other cap-breaching issues.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Rupes (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 20:15

Quote:
Innings
Rupes.
Quote:
DerbyshireFan - sorry, but that's not what I've said. What you call out is what I think the HUGE issue the club is facing, specifically the financing of the club. Given what has happened, I don't believe we should still take his (or his family's money). That obviously has massive ramifications, but if the club (as per the Chairman's statement) is truly interested in re-building trust and confidence then I don't think we can say "yes, it's happening" on the one hand and still have Nigel (or his family) involved. It's a really bad situation and it's not anyone's choice of action, but I feel that until there is a clean break then we're going to struggle to get that confidence or trust back.
I'm aware that's not a popular view btw, but taking the emotion out of it then I don't see another way forward.


A moral stance. There are probably no buyers, no other source of income to pay anyone at all. The CVC money amounts to less than £10million, which would last for less than a year. It is illegal to trade as a company whilst insolvent, as this business would certainly be without the Wray family. Where does your suggestion take you?


Innings - I promise it's not meant to be a moral stance at all. All I'm trying to do is to take the emotion out of it. What you say about buyers etc...is probably very true (although I'd never under-estimate the new CEO!), so I'm not sure where my suggestion takes us. And, as I've said above, I think that's a HUGE issue but sadly one for which I don't have an answer.

Re: What should Sarries do now?
Posted by: Harrow Sarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 20 January, 2020 23:28

Quote:
Rich.
Yeah but if he correct and no other issues why not let the auditors in?

Reports suggested that the "deal" was more complex than that. For example it also included the unprecedented step of handing back previously won trophies, a sanction not currently covered/permitted under current regulations, so who knows what else they piled on.

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