Current Page: 1 of 3
Keeping international players
Posted by: Robert495 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:18

Out of interest I wondered what people’s thoughts are on which of our international players we will keep for next season and which will move on? Obviously if we loan players out for a year that comes under the category of keeping them.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:37

Sorry I'm not actually answering your question here but to add another question, will the Saracen's England players be given special dispensation to go an play in France (even if it's just on loan for a season) and still get picked by England?

Given other Prem clubs are saying they are up to the cap or may not want to take Sarries players for a year loan surely these would be exceptional circumstances!

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Primavesi2 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:53

I think if this does not qualify as "exceptional circumstances" then nothing does so I would imagine that the answer to that, for the 1st year at least, would be that yes, they would still be eligible for England.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Roger G (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:25

Quote:
Robert495
Out of interest I wondered what people’s thoughts are on which of our international players we will keep for next season and which will move on? Obviously if we loan players out for a year that comes under the category of keeping them.

I think we'll be pleasantly surprised how many stay loyal to the club, even if they have a year on loan somewhere. I have my private suspicions as to who might move on, but it would be pointless/divisive to say publicly.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Chops3 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:31

I really hope Richard Barrington stays. An underrated prop and critical to the spirit of the playing group. He should help everyone get into the ethos of championship club rugby.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:33

Quote:
Chops3
I really hope Richard Barrington stays. An underrated prop and critical to the spirit of the playing group. He should help everyone get into the ethos of championship club rugby.

+1



+1

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:38

I suggest there are three dimensions to the question - how many internationals should Saracens keep / loan / release?

Firstly there's the economic question because income will be reduced … championship gates, lost European gates, lost TV money, lost sponsors, lost income from companies paying to learn from Saracens so how much will Saracens want to cut the bill for 2020/2021 season?

Secondly there is keeping players motivated especially those that want to be considered for England/B&I Lion. I think the RFU have a real dilemma here. If a valid exceptional circumstance is deemed to be "my club were caught cheating and I don't want to leave them" then surely every other player can claim an exception along the lines of "my club can't afford to pay me a decent salary so I need to go with the money and play in France". This has the potential to smash the "must play in England" rule which then means any player could play anywhere in Europe (mainly France) and claim the right to still be eligible for England.

Thirdly there is getting inside the cap for 2021 ... and being perceived to be inside the cap. I think Saracens have a difficult balancing act for both public perception and pacifying the PRL chairmen. How many players can be loaned out then brought back without accusations similar to this season that "nothing has changed"? It may well be true that in 18 months' time Saracens are complying with the cap but if the perception is that all your B&I lions took a well paid sabbatical to France then came back again the calls for audits will not go away.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Roger G (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:01

Quote:
Marlow Nick
I suggest there are three dimensions to the question - how many internationals should Saracens keep / loan / release?
Firstly there's the economic question because income will be reduced … championship gates, lost European gates, lost TV money, lost sponsors, lost income from companies paying to learn from Saracens so how much will Saracens want to cut the bill for 2020/2021 season?

Secondly there is keeping players motivated especially those that want to be considered for England/B&I Lion. I think the RFU have a real dilemma here. If a valid exceptional circumstance is deemed to be "my club were caught cheating and I don't want to leave them" then surely every other player can claim an exception along the lines of "my club can't afford to pay me a decent salary so I need to go with the money and play in France". This has the potential to smash the "must play in England" rule which then means any player could play anywhere in Europe (mainly France) and claim the right to still be eligible for England.

Thirdly there is getting inside the cap for 2021 ... and being perceived to be inside the cap. I think Saracens have a difficult balancing act for both public perception and pacifying the PRL chairmen. How many players can be loaned out then brought back without accusations similar to this season that "nothing has changed"? It may well be true that in 18 months' time Saracens are complying with the cap but if the perception is that all your B&I lions took a well paid sabbatical to France then came back again the calls for audits will not go away.

Nick, unusually I agree with much of your post. Your use of the word "perception" in the third paragraph is interesting. Ed Griffiths has already acknoweldged the need for Sarries to deal with not only the spreadsheets, but also the perception of Sarries squad, and I'm sure we'll see what that means for Sarries over the coming days, weeks & months.

But this raises a couple of other points. Firstly, despite all that's been shown to be wrong about Sarries, you only have to watch the reactions of the many players that are Sarries "man and boy", and listen to their passion about the club when interviewed, to realise that there is a tight bond between each other and the club. Obviously that probably doesn't extend to everybody in the squad, and may well be replicated at other clubs to a greater or lesser extent, but nevertheless may well influence whether those players stay, and what compromises they may be prepared to make personally to see the club rise from the ashes.

Secondly, on the point of perception, although the evil Saracans stories are still top of the rugby news, there are already the odd journo pieces emerging about the secrecy and lack of specific detail about Sarries crimes and the regulations that have led to their relegation, and whether PRL have handled the whole thing well, and I think that side of the story may well grow when the Sarries specific stuff has died down. It is equally important for the whole sport that public perception of PRL should be that they are a fair and professsional body.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Robert495 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:05

I think we will keep Maro, Owen, mako and Jamie George. Players like barrington, wiggy and Brad will also we crucial next year to help the team which will have a lot of youngsters in it. Some wise experienced heads will be needed

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: McSaracens (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:14

I would expect Owen, Jamie, Maro, Mako and Billy to stay. Hopefully Earl on a loan.

I think the more likely leavers from an international perspective are Singleton, Lozowski, Figallo etc



“I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.” - Nils Mordt

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: daz_71 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:15

Quote:
Robert495
I think we will keep Maro, Owen, mako and Jamie George. Players like barrington, wiggy and Brad will also we crucial next year to help the team which will have a lot of youngsters in it. Some wise experienced heads will be needed

Can Wiggy play for us in the championship if he is still the attack coach for Ealing? Surely a conflict of interest!!!

I'm asking the question with tongue-in-cheek a bit as if he stays with us I'm sure he would sacrifice his role at Ealing although there were rumours he was going to retire at the end of the season.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:29

Perception is key for Saracens rehabilitation & acceptance back into the fold. Can you imagine the noise if Saracens won the 2021/22 season? In my opinion the best thing for Saracens would be scraping into 6th place. That way you'd get European rugby in 2022/23 but wouldn't be open to accusations that nothing has changed. It would be good PR to be seen to have an "average" number of internationals and an "average" number of Lions to reinforce the perception that Saracens are now operating with an "average" salary. That may feel unfair because clearly your culture, coaching and support are above average but it appears PRL are driven at least in part by perception and emotion so it's best to show a bit of humility.

If you were aiming for an "average" squad who would you keep as the core to rebuild the squad and brand over the next 3-5 years? That's who I'd suggest should be kept / loaned out. Everyone else should leave as soon as possible. That will be harsh on players and may feel like too much of a punishment but perception is key for Saracens rehabilitation & acceptance back into the fold.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: The Substandard Biscuit (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:50

Wiggy was on the BBC RUW podcast a week or so ago.
He said he's no intention of retiring yet. He's also enjoying his coaching at Ealing, so he has a decision to make.

As a bare minimum I hope we retain: Brad, Goode; Baz; Nick I.; Ben E; Wray; Big Willie (mainly non-internationals); and all our up & coming academy players (Manu; Joel; Roti; Matt G; Tom W; et al), who in 2 years time will be developed further. Others I'd expect to either be loaned out, or gone to France/Japan, we may see some sabbaticals to NZ or Aus. Some might return. I suspect that even with a crowbar it won't move some of the other internationals, like Faz, who is already on record saying he's going nowhere.
We might see Nick T. go to a Welsh region - I hope not.

The two things that worry me most, largely within our control, is the impact on our coaching set-up, and the impact on our academy. Both of which are easily the best in English rugby.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Robert495 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:58

I think tompkins will go to a welsh team. For someone as talented as him he hasnt played much at all this season and unless hes injured i wonder if something is already going on behind the scenes there. I would like to keep daly as if loz, tompkins and brad are all gone in the next 2 years he is a good option for long term in our centres. Wiggy definately has a decision to make as i feel spencer could be another international who goes elsewhere

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:02

The paradox is you may find it easier to keep your established internationals who just have to prove to Eddy that they are match-fit than your up and coming high potential players who have to demonstrate to Eddy that they have earnt their call-up.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Roger G (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:05

Perception is key for Saracens right now, but in years to come I'd suggest it shouldn't be, it should primarily be hard facts that govern re-entry to the fold. If it were the case that PRL said "yes, the figures say you're within the salary cap, but the other clubs and their fans still think your squad looks too strong", is that fair? Clearly not, which is one reason I'm saying perception is important for PRL. They must get themselves to the point where if they say "all clubs are fully audited annually, and (insert club name here) are clean" that we can believe them, and not have serious breaches brought up several years later.

Yes Sarries have breached regulations, but FFS why didn't PRL spot it three years ago if their auditing programme is fit for purpose!

So, if Sarries can keep the majority of their squad together AND demonstrate cap compliance under intense scrutiny, why should that be a problem?

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: GazzaFez (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:17

Eddie Jones has done more than hint he's OK with the situation - and why wouldn't he be? There are four Autumn Internationals this year followed by five 6N matches. A total of nine internationals in a season where EJ can play all his Saracens players unfettered in all nine matches and they will be well rested for the Lions tour as an added bonus. What's not to like from his perspective. It's not like any of them have anything to prove, amongst the senior players anyway.

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: Sorry Sarrie (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:41

Quote:
Marlow Nick
It may well be true that in 18 months' time Saracens are complying with the cap but if the perception is that all your B&I lions took a well paid sabbatical to France then came back again the calls for audits will not go away.

The calls for audits should be met.......... by all premiership clubs or if that's overkill then the top half or 6 that qualify for Europe. I don't want to trigger "denial and delusional" taunts from the usual suspects but I find it hard to believe that Nigel Wray is in an exclusive club of one multi-millionaire club owner who wants to game the rule book to get an advantage.

Cheating, yes let's call it that instead of mistakes, is binary - you either are or you are not so there's no shelter in the "we didn't cheat as much as you did" so yes let's have a thorough audit of the Premiership clubs and let's get that PRL report out in the open. We are so deep in the do-do now it matters not to me. I just want the truth however dreadful it is. The fans of all clubs are owed at least transparency on this?



My wife and I are on the verge of splitting up because of my obsession with rugby.
I've decided to give it one last try......

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: jonnybrowne (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:46

Quote:
Chops3
I really hope Richard Barrington stays. An underrated prop and critical to the spirit of the playing group. He should help everyone get into the ethos of championship club rugby.

+1

Re: Keeping international players
Posted by: jonnybrowne (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:54

Quote:
daz_71
Quote:
Robert495
I think we will keep Maro, Owen, mako and Jamie George. Players like barrington, wiggy and Brad will also we crucial next year to help the team which will have a lot of youngsters in it. Some wise experienced heads will be needed

Can Wiggy play for us in the championship if he is still the attack coach for Ealing? Surely a conflict of interest!!!

I'm asking the question with tongue-in-cheek a bit as if he stays with us I'm sure he would sacrifice his role at Ealing although there were rumours he was going to retire at the end of the season.

I did read an interview with Wiggy before Christmas (can’t remember which paper) that suggested he wanted to carry on playing for another year at Sarries, or elsewhere if need be,

Current Page: 1 of 3
This Thread has been closed
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net