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Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Cereal Killer (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 22:28

Darren Childs has spoken to the BBC about how the club need "to be more transparent with fans over how they came to be relegated". Also says they would revisit publishing the report if Sarries gave approval to make it public.

I for one would like to hear some honesty from the club rather than the lies we told back in November.

Premiership Rugby urge club to be more transparent

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 22:35

Quote:
Cereal Killer
Darren Childs has spoken to the BBC about how the club need "to be more transparent with fans over how they came to be relegated". Also says they would revisit publishing the report if Sarries gave approval to make it public.
I for one would like to hear some honesty from the club rather than the lies we told back in November.

Premiership Rugby urge club to be more transparent

I agree - publish the report - let us see what we have done - it is what it is and nothing can be gained for rugby, our opponents or our path back whilst there is such a vacuum of information.



+1

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Cereal Killer (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 22:49

If it isn’t published the whole rugby community will find it even harder to trust the club in future, understandably. We need to draw a line in the sand and can’t do that without transparency. PRL already know what’s in there so we wont be hit with further sanctions

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: mixmastermatt (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 22:54

I’m furious at all parties involved. PRL, Tony Rowe, the majority of fans of other teams - the lot of them can go do one as they’ve bought the game in to disrepute as much as the next man. But the way the club have handled this is nothing short of appalling. Hardly a word. We know they’ve done wrong, they’ve been busted. But they have not given us any suitable level of information, even if it is just their opinion on what has happened. More fans will lose faith in the club over the coming weeks if this continues.

We love our club, put so much time, energy and TRUST in to being there for them.... time to give back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/01/2020 22:56 by mixmastermatt.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: AlanE (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 23:01

Quote:
mixmastermatt
I’m furious at all parties involved. PRL, Tony Rowe, the majority of fans of other teams - the lot of them can go do one as they’ve bought the game in to disrepute as much as the next man. But the way the club have handled this is nothing short of appalling. Hardly a word. We know they’ve done wrong, they’ve been busted. But they have not given us any suitable level of information, even if it is just their opinion on what has happened. More fans will lose faith in the club over the coming weeks if this continues.
We love our club, put so much time, energy and TRUST in to being there for them.... time to give back.

I don't agree with the first two lines, MMM. I am sure it is not fair to wish 'the majority of fans of other teams' as you have; I don't believe 'the majority' are doing anything of the sort - perhaps just the noisy lot who post on here and in other media, and many of them, but not all, have been reasonable in their comments.

As for your comments about our club - spot on.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: mixmastermatt (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 23:27

Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
mixmastermatt
I’m furious at all parties involved. PRL, Tony Rowe, the majority of fans of other teams - the lot of them can go do one as they’ve bought the game in to disrepute as much as the next man. But the way the club have handled this is nothing short of appalling. Hardly a word. We know they’ve done wrong, they’ve been busted. But they have not given us any suitable level of information, even if it is just their opinion on what has happened. More fans will lose faith in the club over the coming weeks if this continues.
We love our club, put so much time, energy and TRUST in to being there for them.... time to give back.

I don't agree with the first two lines, MMM. I am sure it is not fair to wish 'the majority of fans of other teams' as you have; I don't believe 'the majority' are doing anything of the sort - perhaps just the noisy lot who post on here and in other media, and many of them, but not all, have been reasonable in their comments.

As for your comments about our club - spot on.

Fair enough, but the vast majority on here and twitter have been 🍆.

As for our club, Its now Tuesday night and bare one wishywashy email, they’ve said Fahkall.

The level silence says a lot about the level of skullduggery.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: darktagnan (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 23:27

I read this in a slightly different way.
It looks to me as if PRL will only consider releasing their own report after a statement from Sarries about the relegation decision. I think that is completely the wrong way round & suggests a weakness in PRLs previous handling, or critical content of their actions or officers which they want to gloss over.
As whatever is happening now is a direct result of the report, in my view publication of the report must come first. As in tomorrow morning.
Once we know what the cause of all this stuff is, we can assess what statements have been made may or may not be accurate and who was at fault and when - as well as whether the "constructive dialogue" last week was ever worth anything, or just windows dressing to cover decisions which were made behind closed doors months ago.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Stevie_Wonder (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 00:57

I think you need to read the guardian article on the other thread darktagnan...

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Static (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 02:30

Agree on the need for transparency and it is something everyone wants as speaking personally I cannot tie together all statements I have heard on the points deduction and relegation.

Having said that what doesn't make sense to me is how a forensic audit could help. The statement has been that the payments that took everything over the cap were related to personal loans from NW to players. They will not appear in accounts of the club. The only thing that can be shown by looking at the club accounts are transactions that pass through it, which would not have occurred with the joint ventures as I cannot believe the money passed through the club. The audit to be beneficial would need to be from all the individuals and connected companies too, which I think would be outside of the remit of PRL. The only thing they will pick up is direct payments from the club to players.

That is not saying that could not have proved we were over the cap, but it will never give the true full picture. May have related to individual rights,royalty payments for players names being on shirts or a host of other mechanisms that would not be "Salary". I am not doubting the payments were made and we broke or annihilated the cap just feel the thought of a forensic audit to be of little benefit.

What we need is the report to be published and made clear what PRL have declared as the reasons for us being over the cap. Otherwise their will always be suspicions and auditing the accounts, no matter how forensic will clear the concerns of others. Having said that I don't believe it will ever be enough for everyone.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 06:26

PRL agree with you. They want the report published but Saracens are blocking it. No one else just Saracens

Quote:
PRL in the guardian
Premiership Rugby has got absolutely nothing to hide in that judgment...
“It is very important to stress that we have specifically not been given that permission. We cannot publish Lord Dyson’s full decision regardless of what anyone would like us to do. Saracens are not supportive of that document being published.

“It was very much their lawyers’ decision that it should remain confidential. Why wouldn’t they want it published? That’s a question for them. But if they’re prepared to change their mind I would be prepared to discuss it with my board with a view to publishing it.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/01/2020 06:28 by Marlow Nick.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Merlin-k (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 06:31

According to Venter
a) the club would offer players what they could and then tell the player to go and speak to Nigel Wray
b) Nigel Wray did not keep a book of everything that was owed to him.
If that is true, apart from being strange behavior from a business man and implying some guilt, then an audit isn’t going to pick anything up. The whole thing is rather strange. Sadly the silence allows people to go down rabbit holes of what might be. Might be allows the greater division as we can guess at the story we want. This is divisive.
Ultimately I’m just looking forward to watching rugby again, and congratulations to the Sarries for an incredible performance last weekend. It said a lot about the mental strength of the team that they could pull that out.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Primavesi2 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 06:33

I honestly think us fans should now be putting a lot of pressure on the club to allow release of the report, redacted in places if necessary, so that we can finally make sense of what has happened.

We have more power than we realise. I’m sure if a thousand or so fans signed a letter saying we would not renew for next year or buy any more merch etc until they agree to publish, or at least gave a proper reason as to why not, then things would move pretty quick.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: myleftboot (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 07:19

Unless the club start being a lot more honest, they cant really move on. Nigel had a lot to say after the first hit, yet nothing now. Not really acceptable

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Monkey1 (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 07:33

Reported in The Times today that Saracens have instructed their lawyers to write to PRL & demand that the report is NOT made public. So much for transparency.
(Sm16)

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: mrangry (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 07:40

As I have been saying all along only public scrutiny of the initial report will clear the air. PRL are saying that it is Saracens lawyers that are blocking the report, so my question is why? If we broke the cap only with extra payments, then this must be clarified. Perhaps our lawyers know that the initial reaction from PRL was that we could ask for a review but would still be found guilty as they made the rules. Perhaps they felt there was no point in taking things further. But our argument seems to have been that these payments were legal, and not salary. Surely by publishing everything the areas in dispute can be highlighted. Then the payments can be debated in public, with other arguments being made to justify our actions (Lack of London weighting, number of international players not available for League games etc. ) If a totally independent arbitration panel declared the payments to be illegal, we deserve eveything we have got, and perhaps more. But if they say that PRL got it wrong and we in fact did not breach the true meaning of Salary in Salary Cap, then the actions of PRL and its constituent members will be seem in a totally different light.
Only by a completely open and honest revelation of all the facts AND a public debate on them will this matter be properly resolved. It is up to the club, who I have supported for over 30 years, to publish and be damned. Or perhaps exonerated.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 07:40

I really don't understand Saracens' logic in blocking the report.
If they are worried about further sanctions then the people in power all have access to the report anyway
If they are worried about their brand / reputation with sponsors and supporters then surely it's better to " kitchen sink" the whole thing in one go rather than the endless speculation and inevitable leaks

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: thorpebayexile (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 08:15

One reason it could be being blocked is to try to protect parties involved. If the payments were so obviously unusual that recipients should have realised that the purpose for the mechanism was to disguise salary then they would be implicated to a degree in cheating. Unfortunately without publication then people have to draw their own conclusions.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 08:25

Quote:
thorpebayexile
One reason it could be being blocked is to try to protect parties involved. If the payments were so obviously unusual that recipients should have realised that the purpose for the mechanism was to disguise salary then they would be implicated to a degree in cheating. Unfortunately without publication then people have to draw their own conclusions.

Perfectly possible to release a copy with all players’ details redacted or pseudonymised.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: myleftboot (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 08:30

Thorpebay, afraid you may have a point. It's a bit tricky to try a 'I'm just a rugby player, me' defence when you have a degree is Business, Management or something similar. I suspect Nigel might be compelled to do the sort of YouTube confessional video that seems so trendy now, and the club try to leave it at that.

Re: Time for the club to say something?
Posted by: Marlow Nick (IP Logged)
Date: 22 January, 2020 08:40

Quote:
thorpebayexile
One reason it could be being blocked is to try to protect parties involved. If the payments were so obviously unusual that recipients should have realised that the purpose for the mechanism was to disguise salary then they would be implicated to a degree in cheating. Unfortunately without publication then people have to draw their own conclusions.

It's time to stop trying to protect people. If someone is implicated in the report then they deserve to be exposed. If players have done nothing wrong they have nothing to hide. If it's the right to personal confidentiality then agree to publication but remind PRL of their GDPR responsibilities and leave it to PRL lawyers.

My suspicion (yes I know yet more speculation) is that there is another bombshell in the report along the lines of "here's a massive overspend that is blatantly against the spirit of the rules but we couldn't quite make it stick due to clever legal interpretation of a loophole"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/01/2020 08:48 by Marlow Nick.

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