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What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: myleftboot (IP Logged)
Date: 22 July, 2020 20:52

[inews.co.uk]

Can't be worse thank Sarries Shed?

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Innings (IP Logged)
Date: 22 July, 2020 23:30

Thinking inside the box is failing rugby in every possible way, so a bit of thought outside it is welcome, in my mind.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: boomer! (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 00:12

Quote:
Innings
Thinking inside the box is failing rugby in every possible way, so a bit of thought outside it is welcome, in my mind.

Agreed.

If the Championship is to survive the starving of funding AND CV19 it has to come up with something dynamic. Regional rugby will also reduce travel costs to those cash strapped clubs.



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Barty II (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 09:21

Whatever he's been smoking I might request some of it, because it seems like a thoroughly good idea compared to the ****show of the last few years trying to keep the championship afloat

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Duncan96 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 10:12

There are more details in the Times one of which is that all players in the championship must be associated with employment or higher education. I.e. it will officially be a semi pro league.

I believe the Premiership will need to go to a Pro 14 structure with 2 pools of 7 clubs and play offs for the top 4 in each pool to ensure interest for all clubs to near the end of the season.

That will fit in with the inevitable shift toward more international games being driven by World Rugby to save Australia and help the Tier 2 Nations.

I'm not saying that's what I or anyone else wants. I just think it's inevitable we'll see a Leinster type situation: more games using young talent, big stars available mainly for Europe and end of Season.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Cereal Killer (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 10:35

I also thought there were some very good ideas in there. My only reservation is it might delay the promoted teams preparation for being in the Prem.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 11:10

One idea I really don't like is having two Prem conferences - 14 Prem sides is do-able if you scrap the domestic cup.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Barty II (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 11:59

I've often wondered whether a "vertical" conference system would work in the premiership.

E.g. if you had a 16-team premiership, split the top 8 (i.e. the Champions Cup teams) and bottom 8 (rest of the current league plus a few from the current championship). The top 8 all play each other home and away, and play one fixture each against the clubs in the other tier. Works out as 22 games, same as current, even though there's four extra teams.

And as an example, Ealing have two thirds of their fixtures against the sides marginally closer to their standard so aids the transition into the top flight, while also still having a few matches against the very top sides in order to test themselves, get additional gate receipts etc.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: GazzaFez (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 12:45

Quote:
shendy
One idea I really don't like is having two Prem conferences - 14 Prem sides is do-able if you scrap the domestic cup.

Me too. Two conferences is an absolute no no from me. Can't see anything attractive about the idea aside from which any attempt to decide on which teams go into which conference is fraught with problems.

Agree 14 team Prem is the way to go possibly dropping the Anglo Welsh/LV cup thing altogether. Any slack (if there is any) can be taken up with a better & more structured A league, which I've always thought is a better idea.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 12:52

But what about local rivalries, Saints v Leicester, Bath v Bristol etc? They're often fierce games, with big crowds and TV coverage. Splitting "vertically" risks removing them, which will cost the sides cold hard cash.

It's the same with parallel conferences - you "need" to keep some clubs together, but you also need to make sure everyone gets to play everyone else pretty frequently. So you can't have fixed conferences; randomly assigning them each year risks creating easy & difficult conferences; putting odd places from the year before into conference A and even places in conference B weights them evenly but gets back to missing out on derbies.

I can't see a sensible way of achieving conferences that really works - there are so many factors in play.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Barty II (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 13:30

Quote:
shendy
But what about local rivalries, Saints v Leicester, Bath v Bristol etc? They're often fierce games, with big crowds and TV coverage. Splitting "vertically" risks removing them, which will cost the sides cold hard cash.
It's the same with parallel conferences - you "need" to keep some clubs together, but you also need to make sure everyone gets to play everyone else pretty frequently. So you can't have fixed conferences; randomly assigning them each year risks creating easy & difficult conferences; putting odd places from the year before into conference A and even places in conference B weights them evenly but gets back to missing out on derbies.

I can't see a sensible way of achieving conferences that really works - there are so many factors in play.

Could argue that it's no different to one of them being relegated to the championship though (as has happened with Bristol most recently, Saints in the past, and very close with Leicester) - if they are in two separate conferences in the vertical format there will still be at least one match between them. Would argue that narrow focus on a handful of important matches is what has got the league into a mess in the first place, rather than aiming to ensure competitive matches across the board.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Duncan96 (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 13:51

Yes, there are drawbacks to 2 pools of 7. I can’t see TV and RFU money being split among 16 teams versus 12 at the moment. But a 14 team league could work with a top 7 and bottom 7, although that has many of the same drawbacks as 2 pools of 7 (eg less local derbies) and it doesn’t have such a good play off system.

By far the worst situation: 13 team league the same in every other way as at present with no relegation. The season would be over by Christmas for up to half the teams

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Sara'sman (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 14:09

Barty - I too argue for two Premiership divisions and the format you outline (though perhaps a Prem2 of 6 clubs initially until Pirates/Cov/Ealing and (Leeds) get strong enough on and off the park. Retain the Prem Cup (necessary in order to rest top non-internationals, give squad players game time/development, clubs the income) and ensure the draw gives any missing second "money spinning derbies" (though surely Saints and Tiggs would retain their two in Div 2 grinning smiley). We don't produce enough players or income for 12 top class teams - concentrate the talent, import fewer.

Currently a club's top non-internationals can just about play every important game (22 Prem, 6 Europe, 5 KO) add 4 more in a 14 team league and this would no longer be the case - and 4 more would clash with internationals. I'd go further by playing the bulk of Prem1 v Prem2 during International periods/before Europe, and award only 2/1/0 points. I suspect that longer term we'd see Worcester, Newcastle, Irish plus (Wasps/Glaws) as Prem2 regulars though with their chance of promotion retained.

Talking of the impoverished Leeds Tykes, below these two divisions (including Edward's Championship) clubs need to cut their cloth more realistically - semi pro and more local fixtures. Take a look at the absurd amount of travel Darlington (and Tykes) will be undertaking on their budget in Nat 1 next season - see here.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: jonnybrowne (IP Logged)
Date: 23 July, 2020 15:44

Quote:
Barty II
Whatever he's been smoking I might request some of it, because it seems like a thoroughly good idea compared to the ****show of the last few years trying to keep the championship afloat

Agreed - and it could just turn out to be a more enjoyable and exciting experience than a ringfenced and flat-structured Premiership...

...and even as a non-smoker I’d try a puff...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/07/2020 19:00 by jonnybrowne.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: JO'G (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 09:15

whats interesting is to look at the rise in quality and excitement in New Zealand on the more limited competition

I also think the less is more for all rugby. Also need to look around at the World Rugby situation where they are looking to firm up the 3 distinct chunks of international matches. As a result I had an 'out of the box' thought for the Club game, specifically in the Northern Hemisphere

Given there are 3 International chunks - In the autumn, the 6 nations and the Summer tours, which would include RWCup and the L;ions Tour Split the club seasion into 3 chunks to match those. For player quality, if you are an international player, you can only play in club games to take them to 28 per season

Chunk1 : before the Autumn Internationals. There are 14 French clubs, 1 Italian and otherwise 25 British/Irish clubs. Like in New Zealand, split them into 8 leagues of 5 clubs; locally grouped. Play 4 home and away games plus a final to produce a Top team in each group. These games also count in the Premiership. Newcastle and Sale play against the Scottish teams. Its likely the Intenational players will have this time off

Chunk 2. (9 weeks) the 2 finalists in each of the 8 groups qualify for the Champions Cup - run back to back, 6 pool games, 3 knockout games. Those teams not qualifying play Prem, Top 14 and Pro14 games with other sides that they haven't yet played against each other during those 9 weeks. For those teams in the Champions Cup, their A sides play each other in the same league during those 9 weeks.

Chunk 3; in those 2 years where there is no RWCup or Lions tour - the 8 1/4 finalists join 8 s/h teams for a World Club championship - hosted in one country (take it in turns) for a 7 week tournament. This should still give time for the remaining Prem / Pro14 / Top14 games to take place plus semi/final.

Lots of premium games there for TV money to salivate over and still a proper league taking place. Would need the prem cap to apply to prem games only - teams would then take the chance on qualifying with 'cheaper' players knowing that their expensive players would play in the 16 more senior ones later on



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/07/2020 09:17 by JO'G .

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: nedrichards (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 12:06

J'O G: interesting! That certainly has a flavour of "I'd watch that".

I did wonder a year or two back about the possibility within the regulations that a team might solely register a player for Europe vs the league and how that would/should/could be counted for cap purposes.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Innings (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 13:32

This seems to be a neat solution until you look at the long-term implications.

If ever there was a time for accepting that the existing model of pro rugby, world-wide, has failed beyond repair, this time is now. Internationally, World Rugby has shamefully shut out Japan, the Pacific nations, every country in mainland Europe other than France and a token one club in Italy and ignored every country in north and south America except Argentina. A game that scarcely exists in China, the entire Indian sub-continent, Russia, USA, The Philipines, IndonesiaI cannot claim credibly to be a world sport. That is made worse by the fact that there is absolutely no indication of interest in creating a world game except to provide fodder games at RWC.

One consequence is that New Zealand is rapidly losing the 4-nations concept, with every possibility that Australian pro rugby will continue its drift into irrelevance at home, Argentina following and South Africa looking north for its financial survival. The All Blacks will be reduced to playing with themselves, a concept that seems to be the goal of World Rugby.

The model that J'OG propose would effectively isolate European club rugby from its relevance in exactly the same manner.

Having no ambition beyond its existing narrow priorities, the pro game at national level now faces the real probability of drifting back into the sidelines of sporting significance. Rugby has never been a major global sport, and faces the same existential crisis as that of any business run by incompetent managers.

IMHO, Ed is one of very few who seems to have grasped the idea that adapting bad ideas does not change bad plans into winning ones. Remember ICI, GEC and PanAm? Great businesses, but all failed after ignoring the need to accept Schumpeterian development principles. Perhaps it is not surprising, in that light, that people prefer to re-elect Bill Beaumont - last game played was 38 years ago - to his positions in world rugby, including every year since 1999 as England's representative at World Rugby. It seems 'safer' not to rock the boat than to accept the need for new energy and new thinking, especially when times are hard.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Larraldo (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 15:52

There was an interesting London Scottish webinar the other night setting out their aims for the next few years. (In addition to being lifelong Sarries fan I am involved with Lon Scots). The Championship is now very much in two half: 6 semi professional teams and 6 full time. The struggle for LS is to be the best semi pro team and, specifically, to avoid relegation whilst longer term plans get put into place. One of the possible routes to future success is Edward's plan; attendance was estimated to go up from below 1k to 2-4k and although income figures were not given there will be an expected boost from tv rights. It must be stated that both income and attendance will also be positively affected by acquiring own ground.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: Sarakene (IP Logged)
Date: 24 July, 2020 19:26

I think this is an innovative and potentially viable financial solution for the Championship given that none of the clubs have got a sniff of promotion since Exeter. Nevertheless, I mostly see it as a “shot across the bows” of the RFU following the recent “non negotiable” reduction in funding. Along the lines of, “ Ok if that’s your approach we’ll take charge of our own destiny rather than having it done to us”.

Re: What's Edward been smoking this time?
Posted by: TonyTaff (IP Logged)
Date: 25 July, 2020 07:58

I like Edward's plan. I would add a Ranfurly Shield type element (though need to be one for each conference to ensure that every team can have a crack at it).



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