Current Page: 269 of 275
Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 12 February, 2020 01:08

Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.

Quote:
joethefanatic

We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

Yeah, they don't...

(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party taking truly awful terms...).

Quote:
joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.

And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?

The end of the transition period is 31DEC2020. Let's take a look at what things look like then. Until that point, I'm going to keep checking facts.

And your comment on negotiations? In an ideal world they are win-win (although the magnitude of the win is not necessarily symmetrical). But... have you had a look at Trump's negotiating tactics (as far as I can tell he has no actual negotiating strategy)? He demands what he wants, throws his toys when he doesn't get it and then sues everyone in the immediate vicinity. Nicey-Nicey is out. You either have a big stick or you are toast. I don't see our big stick. And the EU are not of the mind to do us any favors because that would encourage others to leave. And China thinks in terms of hundreds of years. They will just wait us out. We're desperate and they're not and they know it.

As Sonny said of the hidden gun for Michael in the Godfather. "I don't want my brother coming out of the bathroom with just his dick in his hand". We don't even have a dick.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2020 01:21 by joethefanatic.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 10:02

"We don't even have a dick."

Actually we do and that is the biggest part of our problem

Over time, say 15 to 20 years I'm sure BFJ will be broadly right and business and successive governments will have found solutions to ease over the big issues so that by then it will be viewed as generally neutral allowing those with more of a political to agenda to claim it was the right thing to do

But someone needs to be logging the cost and pain of getting there

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 11:42

Quote:
gaz59
"We don't even have a dick."
Actually we do and that is the biggest part of our problem

(Sm125)

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: Man from LA (IP Logged)
Date: 13 February, 2020 22:17

Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.

Quote:
joethefanatic

We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

Yeah, they don't...

(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party takingjavascript:editor_tools_handle_image() truly awful terms...).

Quote:
joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.

And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?

The Government has admitted any type of Brexit will make the UK poorer (funny how many economic and trade experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of running the economy of an entire country). When this happens are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions? Or blame it on the nasty-wasty foreigners? I know what my money is on.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2020 00:04

Quote:
Man from LA
The Government has admitted any type of Brexit will make the UK poorer (funny how many economic and trade experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of running the economy of an entire country). When this happens are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions? Or blame it on the nasty-wasty foreigners? I know what my money is on.

1. I'm not sure this government has admitted that.
2. Yeah, the 'economic and trade experts' we've heard from, do seem to think it will have a negative effect on the economy.
3. It's an impossible metric to measure. The growth of Italy, France and Germany (per the EU commission) is lower than they predict for the UK. Might it be lower than if we remained. Possibly, but you could never prove it. It's safe to say, on current predictions, large established economies in Europe are going to have a hard time - we are one of them.
4. Don't imply I have a problem with foreigners (I think my gf might be interested to hear that). Your antipathy to fellow citizens (?) far exceeds any I have to 'foreigners'.
5. If it goes to pot, and it can be reasonably connected to Brexit, then I'll blame Brexit. If it doesn't then I'll go back to my default position of being critical of the government and its governance. We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2020 09:42

"We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point"

I don't think many people are 'willing the country to fail', I'm not. You shouldn't confuse thinking something is a bad idea with people not making their best of it. My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game.

" I'll blame Brexit"

Won't it be a bit late then? Crying over spilt milk? But, in the general case, I'm not sure leavers will. If our banking industry dwindles over the next few years that's highly likely to be brexit related, I just don't see leavers going "yeah, that was kinda my fault." I expect them to say, as they've done with the lack of recent investment in our automotive industry: "It's cos X are a thing of the past.", "That institution has been struggling for years.", "I don't think our economy should be based around..." , "look at this tiny silver lining." and a whole bunch of other excuses.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: JFPC (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2020 11:07

Quote:
DanWiley
"We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point"
I don't think many people are 'willing the country to fail', I'm not. You shouldn't confuse thinking something is a bad idea with people not making their best of it. My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game.

" I'll blame Brexit"

Won't it be a bit late then? Crying over spilt milk? But, in the general case, I'm not sure leavers will. If our banking industry dwindles over the next few years that's highly likely to be brexit related, I just don't see leavers going "yeah, that was kinda my fault." I expect them to say, as they've done with the lack of recent investment in our automotive industry: "It's cos X are a thing of the past.", "That institution has been struggling for years.", "I don't think our economy should be based around..." , "look at this tiny silver lining." and a whole bunch of other excuses.

+1

Unlike most of the leading brexiteers I'm stuck here and my future is tied to this country's wellbeing. I don't have a multi million pound pension to fall back on, or a hedge fund I can shift to Ireland, or German passports for myself and my family. In short I actually need brexit to go well. Do I think it will go well? Not on your nelly.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 14 February, 2020 17:41

"My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game. "

Blooky good analogy though I reckon the odds on your pub team beating the All Blacks are lower than Brexit going well in our lifetime

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: Clarkey3k (IP Logged)
Date: 15 February, 2020 08:58

Mark Carney seems to be changing his thinking according to this Mail article - Link



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 15 February, 2020 23:33

What are the odds that Johnson's time in no 10 ends dramatically and without any shadow of doubt the worst PM ever?

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 02:23

After Treeza and Call-me-Dave? It'll have to be some disaster to beat those two. But I do have faith in Boris (or Dominic).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: ChippenhamRoman (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 10:34

Quote:
joethefanatic
After Treeza and Call-me-Dave? It'll have to be some disaster to beat those two. But I do have faith in Boris (or Dominic).

The fact that you bracket Cummings is utterly terrifying.

Itís now a joke that we all accept that government policy is being driven by an unelected cookoo.

And I use the word cookoo on purpose.

J

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 12:09

OK so the thread is no longer about Brexit but about rubbishing individuals. Pure class, I becoming resigned to the fact that some people want to live in the past and are simply not able to move on.

The problem is if the perceived public view of socialism becomes that 'stuck in a rut' image Labour will never move on.
Listening to comment on the Labour party leadership challenge I was genuinely surprised to hear that the Labour party still maintain that their election manifesto policies are workable and will win them election success. The election failure being the fault of their Brexit stance. (Notice how the thread topic is included).

I do wonder if Brexit will bring about decisions that would have been inconceivable if we had stayed in Europe. Limited 5G with Huawei and Chinese involvement in HS2 being 2 examples though I suspect Mr Corbyn would have approved of the latter!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 18:00

Quote:
shipwrecked
OK so the thread is no longer about Brexit but about rubbishing individuals. Pure class, I becoming resigned to the fact that some people want to live in the past and are simply not able to move on.
....

I do wonder if Brexit will bring about decisions that would have been inconceivable if we had stayed in Europe. Limited 5G with Huawei and Chinese involvement in HS2 being 2 examples though I suspect Mr Corbyn would have approved of the latter!

So your observation in your first paragraph would be different from your comments in your last paragraph in what way, exactly?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 19:36

Not rubbishing in any way, I think that China could well build HS2, would JC have rejected the approach?
It makes financial sense, or are you an advocate of the China conspiracy theorists?

If it was given consideration it would also be further proof that BJ is his own man and not at all submissive to the USA.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 16 February, 2020 22:21

What do you mean by "China build HS2?" I'd be amazed of there isn't significant involvement from Chinese industry, and why would we object to that? I'd also be amazed if we contract the Chinese state to do it. There's no choices for us there, there's just practical ways of building a railway.

On the other hand, if we can't convince the US and EU that core aspects of our information sharing network are secure, they simply won't share critical information with us and we'll suffer as a result. We have the illusion of choice there but, in reality, for certain parts of that infrastructure there's only one choice and for rest of that infrastructure we're back in "practical ways of building a network." Saying we get to choose about the bits that don't relate to national security isn't really that great. That's not the bit people are taking about.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: Clarkey3k (IP Logged)
Date: 21 February, 2020 22:00

I read this and thought of this thread - Guardian EU article



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Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 28 February, 2020 16:28

50,000 new customs agents to be needed to deal with the new Brexit red tape. And they'll need to be trained up cos we don't actually have any. And it'll all need to be complete in 8 months or the ports will seize up.

Frictionless trade, me erse.

[www.theguardian.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/02/2020 16:30 by joethefanatic.

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 February, 2020 18:51

Quote:
joethefanatic
50,000 new customs agents to be needed to deal with the new Brexit red tape. And they'll need to be trained up cos we don't actually have any. And it'll all need to be complete in 8 months or the ports will seize up.
Frictionless trade, me erse.

[www.theguardian.com]

Makes me think I should invest my meagre savings in buying a property in Dover. If Johnson's strategy is right then it is going to be a boom town

Re: OT/ Brexit
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 28 February, 2020 20:18

It's a good job they passed an Act to prevent a No-Deal exit, isn't it, otherwise people might start thinking that's what is intended.

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