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Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Which Tyler (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 14:58

I can see the logic of most things - but I can't say I'm overly impressed.
Tight 5 are fine.
Robshaw should be sitting on a beach sipping Mojitos; as it is, he's in there to hold Curry's hand whilst he gains experience. I don't think it's time to dump him, but he really needed to spend this summer giving his mind and body a chance to actually recuperate and build some beneift from the beastings. I'd be nervous about 2 rookies on the flanks; but I think it would have been better long-term management.
No lock on the bench is a bit risky, and surprising given Eddie's usual desire for as many locks as possible. Surely this is a fitnes issue rather than a desired outcome.
I'm fine with Ford n Faz (though again, Fazlet should be chilling out somewhere he doesn't have to think about rugby); but I can't see how they work with Slade - who I like on principal; I just feel he's wasted at 13; and doubley so at 13 alongside FordnFaz. It's just a bit weird; but then the only centre we've taken who could attack the line is Daly - and I CAN see the point of getting some gametime into him at 15; especially doing so at altitude.
Daly at FB is a good thing; but Brown on the wing... as with the BaaBaa.s match, that can only be as starting backup in case Daly has a howler; when they can switch positions and not use up a replacement. I don't like it, but it is what it is. I'm also fine with Drunken Denny getting as few minutes for England as possible - on the principal of twattishness, not talent. I'd far rather have had Daly and Woodward starting together; but that's got that old "experience" issue, of having a rookie FB, with his backup being a rookie international - a risk well worth taking IMO; and an issue that is of Eddie's own making.
The less said about Francis over Lozowski (or even Cipriani) the better



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 14:59 by Which Tyler.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Rawce (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 15:44

I like the way the Boks have chosen to start with two tightheads on the field with a further two on the bench. A very cunning plan, I'm surprised no one else has thought of it. Perhaps we can sneak an extra wing on the pitch to play with Brown?

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Big Dog (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 16:22

Maybe Eddie has chosen an interesting lineup to force us to watch in intrigue? He's like an Eastenders or something - everytime you start to get bored of the drama and nonsense he throws a wildcard selection in to keep you viewing...

Personally would have gone with the below instead based upon what I know of fitness and form;

Mako
George
Sinckler
Maro
Isiekwe (would have started Launchbury if fit)
Wilson (seems to be very under rated but physicality wise could match the Boks imo)
Curry
Billy

Robson
Ford
May
Farrell
Lozowski
Daly
Woodward

Not loads different and still selection issues for me but given the injuries and lack of fit and capable midfielders I think it is the best I could drag from the dregs. Surprising how when Joseph fit we all complain (myself included at times) he isn't in form but actually I am no more confident now Slade is being given a chance.

Would ideally have a fit Watson to start on wing and Daly to FB in my lineup but needs must. Woodward would still be a preferable wing option to Brown too!



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Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 16:22

Given the squad Eddie has taken there aren't many team selections I'm surprised at

This is Slade's big opportunity to make or break so can understand that. Probably I'd go with Robson over Spencer but Francis over Lozo? Bizarre

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Shorty Shorty iiv (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 16:50

SA by 20... and quite frankly I hope its more. and I'm English.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:18

I don't understand the "I hope it's more" school, what are you hoping that will achive?

I guess it will vindicate your decision to be miserable about it?

Which means you can emotionally detach yourself from the game?

You'll be able to say "told you so" if right whilst being quietly forgotten if wrong.

I'm quite looking forward to this. We're coming off the back of some terrible results and I don't know how strong SA are so my hopes are a bit mixed, but brown aside I don't think the squad particularly worries me.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 17:26

I do enjoy watching Faf and WLR in action which could liven up the experience - both top players.

Slades time is now, if he doesn't justify his place in this game I fear that he won't get much of a look in. Is Ellis Genge injured, I thought that he may have had a sniff (Mako shouldn't be there IMO, he has played something like 32 games this season).

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 18:08

Is Hughes a realistic line out jumper or would it take a forklift to lift him? If one of the locks goes off, there will be very few line out options left. Assuming Billy lasts the full game, Robshaw or Curry (ideally the former) will be replaced by Shields who will have had very little time get acquainted with the English line out. By the end of the game, the only jumpers might be one lock and one flanker. The line out playbook could become very limited, against a team who usually have a very strong defensive line out. How have LCDs darts been recently?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 18:11 by RuggyBuggy.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 18:33

Billy won't last the whole game at altitude, Hughes is not a line out jumper and SA will have 4 top level line out jumpers on saturday as Jean Luc and Duane V are both very good jumpers and Kolisi is not a bad fifth jumper although I doubt he will jump on saturday.

The scenario you have provided is interesting, Eddie really cannot afford for Itoje to go down, not only will that mess up the scrum big time but he's the line out caller for England and the one who calls when Kruis is not playing beside him, Isiekwe is not really a caller and Shields won't be able to having only started training on Tuesday so really England are playing with 2 jumpers and maybe Robshaw but he is really only a front jumper, expect loads of movement at line out time as SA will try to double the two locks


He will be hoping and expecting the 2 second rows to play 80 on saturday as I epxect Shields to replace Robshaw and Hughes to replace Billy.

There is no way Billy who has barely played much rugby plays 80 minutes at altitude, it won't happen or he will be useless at the end.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 20:50

Has Eddie lost an England game overseas yet? Another of his records about to get obliterated on Saturday. England would always be long shots in this fixture, but they will be lucky to stay within 20.

Poor old Cips is going to feel a right mug by the end of this tour. Signed for Glos to stay eligible for England and going to find out Eddie only picked him to keep him qualified in case of emergency.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 20:54

England will be lucky to stay within 20, Really??

SA have not lost at Ellis Park to anyone not named NZ since 2001 so they are always going to be favourites at Ellis Park but it is ridiculous to say that England will be lucky to stay within 20 of a team that has been terrible for a few years, playing with many new players and playing their first game of the season.

That is just ridiculous. I know people don't like Jones but some of the predictions on here are bizarre

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 21:00

Yeah, looks like Eddie has his substitutions made already, Hughes for Billy and Shields for Robshaw. Any enforced change to that, even temporarily (injury, HIA, sin bin) could be disastrous for the English set peice. SA will target the English line out big time. They could kick a lot for territory and back their defensive line out. Its going to need a huge effort from both locks, lots of big Saffers to shift from rucks and no doubt plenty of mauls to defend.

Having a relatively slow guy on the wing who is not used to wingers positioning (Brown) kinda plays into SA hands if they kick to the corners. Ironically, Brown would be an ideal full back in this situation, his positioning at fb is very good and he generally runs the ball back to the safety of his pack. His contestables are good also. Would be shocked if he doesn't defend at fb. If you ask me, a conservative fb is the order of the day!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 21:02 by RuggyBuggy.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 21:09

I agree with you Ruggy although I really want to see Daly at FB. The Brown thing on the wing does not work, he is a full back and nothing else so I really do not get that.

If he is one on one on the wing with the two speedsters SA have picked, it is not going to end well for us.

Itoje and Isiekwe are going to have to play 80 minutes and like you said there will have to be loads of movement from line outs but I think we will be fine there. If there is one thing Borthwick is great at, it is planning a great line out.

I also think what 2 back rowers on the bench shows is that Eddie knows that Billy won't play 80 and he would bench Robshaw at some point so, he will be backing both second rows to play 80. Itoje can, Isiekwe is still young and asking him to play 80 in a test match against SA at altitude is a massive ask, I hope he comes through well

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 21:29

I suppose Billy V does change every equation - but I just don’t see England staying with them. If they were suffering a post-Lions fallout in 6N what the hell must they be feeling after a further gruelling 3 months? Brown on the wing is kind of funny in a way. Not even Mike Brown’s mum would believe he would make a full-strength England on the wing. Yet the message Eddie is sending him is, ‘i’m done picking you at fb’. That 23 would have looked a whole lot more solid with Attwood there to partner Itoje and Isiekwe covering 4, 5, 7 and 8. It just feels like Eddie always has to make some sort of point with his selections.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 21:48

Skybet has Boks by 3pts. Boks by 20 - 25 gets you 14-1.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 21:56

Did you watch Sarries play at the end of the season, I don't think fatigue will be a reason why the players especially the sarries ones and that's 5 out of the 8 players in the pack as they did not look tired to me towards the end of the season.

I agree with your points on Brown, to me the selection is most damning on Solomona, it shows Eddie does not trust his defense at all.

As for the Attwood point, that needs to die now, Eddie is not picking Attwood for the squad now or in the future, I know you guys love him a lot here but Attwood was a decent international at best and without a lot of injuries is not making the world cup squad and he has been playing in France, a much slower league, why should he be there over Hill or Isiekwe unless there are loads of injuries.

Isiekwe and Hill have had top seasons and Isiekwe is not exactly small at 6'7 and 120 kg and his opposite man playing for SA is uncapped.

Again I think SA will win, they are at Ellis park, they always play well there, I think the crowd will be buzzing and new coach and new captain, I think they will win but they are not running away with anything, that is a very callow SA team, with an uncapped lock, a one cap 13, two uncapped wings, Robshaw has more caps than both their flankers combined and Billy is even more capped than their 8. I would not be surprised at all if England won the first game although I think SA will win

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 22:09

Quote:
Optimist
That 23 would have looked a whole lot more solid with Attwood there to partner Itoje and Isiekwe covering 4, 5, 7 and 8. It just feels like Eddie always has to make some sort of point with his selections.
Even have Johnny Hill in there, at least he can provide secure line out ball and is a hard grafter with Exeter. Why bring him if he's not going to use him? Eddie knows Billy won't last too long and Robshaw is a bit of a passenger and is sacrificing a lock. Very risky.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 22:37

I know he has a substantial whiff of the 'not test quality' about him, but Olly Woodburn seems ideal for that Brown wing spot.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Dazthelion (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 22:40

I’m not quite in the “want Eng to lose” camp, but I am conflicted and possibly non-plus if we do. The problem is that all I really care about is a RWC. With Jones in charge we cannot win in Japan. His track record offers no hope that he can turn this round from the dire state it’s in. Not just 4 games but they were clinging on for the 3-4 before that.

I never like to see Eng lose but the only slim hope we have of turning it around and competing at the RWC is if the RFU strap on a pair and sack him after this tour, which is incredibly unlikely but a whitewash might make it possible. If we win or compete narrowly, Eddie feels he can justify his arrogant flights of fancy and will make excuses as always. His answer will be fitness levels, missing players, limited English skill set and the Eng Club system. The RFU have little ammunition and we stumble on to get tonked by the ABs in Nov, struggle in the 6N and arrive in Japan in chaos. That’s 2 World Cups we’ll have wasted with a fair bit of talent st our disposal.

Hobson’s choice, but given the RFU won’t sack him and lose face anyway I may as well cheer for England then stick the knife in when we lose.

Re: England Team First SA Test
Posted by: Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
Date: 07 June, 2018 22:52

Why can't England win the world cup, England have lost 4 games since the end of the last world cup and have the best winning record of any nation since then including NZ. I mean we had a @#$%& 6 nations but can we at least get to the end of 2018 before we start talking about how we won't win the world cup.

It is always all or nothing in this country, when Eddie was winning, we were so good, we could challenge the all blacks and now he losses a few games and we are going to lose by 20, we are @#$%&, we won't win a competition that starts in 18 months.

The truth is England were never as good as the wins suggested and they are not as bad as the losses suggested, they are somewhere in that middle pack behind NZ, Ireland were@#$%&last year and even more@#$%&the year before where they could not win a series in SA against a terrible SA team, now they have won a grand slam and they are the greatest thing on earth.

England got to the final of the world cup in 2007 and that team was much worse than the present team, the French team in 2011 got to the final of the world cup and again that team was worse than the current England team, let us wait till at least the end of the year before we start talking about having no chance at the world cup.

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