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Re: The Championship
Posted by: DanWiley (IP Logged)
Date: 08 December, 2019 19:49

I agree. A decent dor/HC can make some fairly average players champions, look at Exeter.

Coaching staff doesn't come out of the cap and can certainly have a bigger impact than any individual player. Probably many players. So spend big there. It's a no brainer.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 08 December, 2019 19:56

Where did Rob Baxter earn his badges before he became DoR of Exeter? Asking for a friend!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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Re: The Championship
Posted by: ouch!_that_hurts (IP Logged)
Date: 08 December, 2019 20:30

According to Wikipedia ...........

As a player Baxter played lock for Exeter for 14 years and served as the club's captain for 10 years.

Following his retirement he moved into coaching the University of Exeter side while acting as a forwards coach for the Chiefs. Rob Baxter was appointed to the position of acting head coach of Exeter Chiefs following the sacking of former coach Pete Drewett in March 2009. On 7 May 2009 it was announced that Baxter will be taking over the position of Head Coach of the Exeter Chiefs.In Baxter's first season as coach, he led the team to promotion from the RFU Championship to the Premiership. Baxter's efforts in establishing Exeter as a strong Premiership side were recognised when he won the 2011/12 Director of the Year award at the Aviva Premiership awards, having also been nominated for the honour the previous season.

It was announced on 26 March 2013 that Baxter would join the England coaching team for the summer tour to Argentina and Uruguay.

In the 2016/2017 season, Baxter led the Exeter Chiefs to win the English Premiership for the first time in their history by beating Wasps in the final 23 - 20.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 08 December, 2019 23:09

Thank you! So the difference between Baxter and Hoops is one started coaching the Uni side before he was chief coach but in a Championship Club and the other started with the academy and went to DoR in a Premier Club! Neither earned their badges elsewhere. Food for thought!



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Re: The Championship
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 04:37

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Thank you! So the difference between Baxter and Hoops is one started coaching the Uni side before he was chief coach but in a Championship Club and the other started with the academy and went to DoR in a Premier Club! Neither earned their badges elsewhere. Food for thought!

I think that extra experience at a lower level ie Championship as against Premiership was a vital difference so less scrutiny & pressure to succeed & carry the can. I presume there was someone above Baxter & he may have been working on his coaching badge?

Re: The Championship
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 07:17

Personally I think we are very much in a relegation battle and I do think a so called Rugby giant will be relegated this season and a lot will come down to luck and by that I mean injuries, how many players are lost to national duty, it will also come down to who reacts first and decisively, these things do not just fix themselves. We have issues without doubt our squad is just not good enough, without injuries we have a competitive 23 with injuries we have a competitive 15 and recently it has really showed when you compare when opposition go to the bench and when we do, Friday was a really good example, and we do not appear to have a playing style the players genuinely look confused.

As for Rob Baxter I have played many times against him, he is a proper one club man, boy and child he has Exeter running through his veins the club truly means something to him and Tony Rowe you cannot buy that.

On another note I can remember watching Bath as a child when we regularly played the likes of Berry Hill and Lydney before the revolution of Jack Rowell, we have strived since Jack's departure to replace him and if we are honest we have failed to do so.

I will always love the Club but it is heartbreaking to hear promises and rhetoric from senior management about Challenging for trophies and titles and in reality we are trying to build a castle on foundations made of sand.. I feel sorry for all the supporters and also the players past and present who deserve better.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 08:19

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Thank you! So the difference between Baxter and Hoops is one started coaching the Uni side before he was chief coach but in a Championship Club and the other started with the academy and went to DoR in a Premier Club! Neither earned their badges elsewhere. Food for thought!

You're ignoring the fact that Baxter learned his trade in the Championship, although I guess Hooper may well be doing that with Bath soon.

Also it took Baxter 7 years to win the PL, I certainly am not interested in waiting that long. Saints have already demonstrated that with the correct DOR massive improvements can be made quickly.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: warrenball (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 08:30

One other slight difference CC, Baxter got promotion in his first year in charge, I am certainly prepared to give Hooper my complete blessing if he has similar success, but it is nearly Christmas and it is looking a little unlikely.

Agree completely with your comments Ali, the days of Jack Rowell are just dim and distant memories.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: fat lock (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 08:34

The Rob Baxter comparison is interesting.
Other than Baxter being an Exeter man to his DNA and Stuart being a relatively late joiner to Bath, it strikes me that the major difference is that Baxter did take his coaching seriously - getting badges, experience and then being a Head Coach before becoming DOR.
There is a definite progression to be seen as he gathered experience.
Hoops has moved straight into the DOR role with no formal coaching qualifications or experience.
That, I think is the concern.

A genuine question - Can someone be an effective DOR without a period of time as a HC ?
I guess the Hooper experiment will help answer that.

Not that copying successful structures of others necessarily results in similar performances, but all other premiership clubs (with the exception of Tigers) have DORs who have had extensive experience as coaches (usually as head coach)

Re: The Championship
Posted by: Bath Hammer (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 08:56

Quote:
Ali1969
Personally I think we are very much in a relegation battle and I do think a so called Rugby giant will be relegated this season and a lot will come down to luck and by that I mean injuries, how many players are lost to national duty, it will also come down to who reacts first and decisively, these things do not just fix themselves. .

I 100% agree with that & the sooner the club realise it the better which surely includes sourcing back up players. The trouble with Hooper presiding over a struggling club is that for all his undoubted qualities, which some will argue about, he doesnít have any experience & confidence to draw upon. Part of him will be worrying about how he is coping. That is only natural. All our competitors have more experience at the helm. A big beast will probably go down & we are certainly in the mix.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 09:07

Our internationals would go and we have a terrible record at developing young backs. We are not a club who would benefit from this. With Exeter doing well and Bristol on the up, we need to stay in the shop window.

Bath also needs to have a structure in place where we can bring through the future stars, whilst winning games at the same time in the Premiership. I can't see Cook, Chudley, Burns, Priestland and Roberts being the future for us but we don't seem to be trying anything else. It shouldn't take relegation to sort this out. It's been obvious for years.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: B4thB4ck (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 09:22

Quote:
TG Kesmo
Actually I did read it. The magic bit was a bit of a give away. Coaches come out of a budget too, where is this bail out money to afford a mid season addition to coaching staff. They would need to be bought out of existing contracts and paid a reasonable salary on arrival. Did you seriously think we would retain all the existing coaching staff in this case.. I see it as a similar to why we didnít replace Matson mid season no one decent available no extra money. Not gonna happen..

The structure of the coaching setup is critical and would be a good investment compared to a relegation and the upheaval that it would cause. If no one is available or lined up for 2020 onwards then give the role to Hats who has good experience of elite level and knows the club. We assume he is happy at Bath or he would not have returned, he knows many of the squad and can pass on a lot of what he has picked up with England. This would be a sensible move with no dramas or disruption. Who can turn their club around the quickest, Hats or Borthwick?

Re: The Championship
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 09:25

Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Thank you! So the difference between Baxter and Hoops is one started coaching the Uni side before he was chief coach but in a Championship Club and the other started with the academy and went to DoR in a Premier Club! Neither earned their badges elsewhere. Food for thought!

You're ignoring the fact that Baxter learned his trade in the Championship, although I guess Hooper may well be doing that with Bath soon.

Err I actually pointed out that was the difference between them!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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Re: The Championship
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 09:26

Quote:
cb2
Our internationals would go and we have a terrible record at developing young backs. We are not a club who would benefit from this. With Exeter doing well and Bristol on the up, we need to stay in the shop window.
Bath also needs to have a structure in place where we can bring through the future stars, whilst winning games at the same time in the Premiership. I can't see Cook, Chudley, Burns, Priestland and Roberts being the future for us but we don't seem to be trying anything else. It shouldn't take relegation to sort this out. It's been obvious for years.

That is just fundamentally wrong!

The academy, Beechen Cliff, and names like TDG, Orlando Bailey, Gabriel Hamer-Webb, Max Ojomoh. Ollie Fox.

There are others that I've missed, Bathmatt is regularly pointing this out?



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Re: The Championship
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 09:41

Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Thank you! So the difference between Baxter and Hoops is one started coaching the Uni side before he was chief coach but in a Championship Club and the other started with the academy and went to DoR in a Premier Club! Neither earned their badges elsewhere. Food for thought!

You're ignoring the fact that Baxter learned his trade in the Championship, although I guess Hooper may well be doing that with Bath soon.

Err I actually pointed out that was the difference between them!

Apologies, I thought you were trying to put a positive spin on Hooper's appointment.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: Bathovalballer (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 11:19

I fully concur with your post Ali1965. A big beast will drop this year and we are very much in the scramble for league points. This should be our priority and nothing else. Without survival, we have not got a prayer in attracting new talent, local or otherwise, and more importantly, it puts the financial viability of the desperately needed new stadium in doubt. Even if we do build it whilst in the Championship, filling it will only be a remote possibility. It would take more years than I care to think about to get back to the Prem and with the debt of the new stadium, highly unlikely we could afford to 'buy' in the talent needed to survive.

Survival is all we can hope for, and to be honest, no more than I wish for this season. That does buy time for the Club to sort itself out, whatever that means.

I am no fan of the Hooper experiment, and it is that, but whoever was in that role with his experience would struggle. Watching the players shows to me that they are neither fully conversant or on board with the tactics we play and still don't show the fighting spirit, collective togetherness or nouse to succeed. Watching Bath at the moment is like seeing a car crash evole in front of you over which you have no control apart from offering undying support. It certainly is a concern to me.



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Re: The Championship
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 11:20

shipwrecked - I am writing about the young backs we have brought through the academy and who have been successful in a Bath shirt. The intake is always good but we don't develop these guys into top quality players. That is the problem.

When was the last time we developed a star 9 or 10 from a junior age? Maybe Gareth Cooper who last played for us in 2002? We rely on taking in young backs from places like the Irish academy and then bringing in older players whose best years are behind them like Priesland, Chudley and Roberts. Let's bring on players of our own and combine them with top quality signings of players in their prime.

Re: The Championship
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 12:34

Ok, that side of it I fully understand cb2.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Re: The Championship
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 12:51

Quite right about the 9s & 10s CB2, but the examples shipwrecked names are all players of real potential. It is too early to say whether they will develop into top quality players - that we will only know in the future.

The recent changes to the Academy system and the development programme at Beechen Cliff are designed to do just that.When/if the likes of TDG, Hamer-Webb etc are regular starters for Bath & interesting national selectors we will know. Until then, these are guys just out of Uni (or in some cases school)so we cannot expect overnight success.

PG

Re: The Championship
Posted by: Banachek (IP Logged)
Date: 09 December, 2019 14:23

Four years ago, I was watching a grass roots youth Rugby league game in South London , I was watching my youngest son who was playing for a RL club (during the summer months) . During the game he sat down (as you can only do in RL) an absolute monster of a player on the opposition. That player was Jo Kpoko.
The point is clubs like Saracens who are generally seen as having the best Academy setups and bringing through players and developing them, they look at players from all backgrounds from far and wide including RL.
I think Bath relying on Beechem and a few players from the Uni, is not going to produce a stream of top class players coming through the academy for the future. IMO

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