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Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: JFPC (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 09:55

Am I the only one who would have liked to have seen Fred and Spencer partnered behind this pack for a few games?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley. Weird split household co-parented
player 2020 Josh Matavesi

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Never In Doubt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 10:00

Bit harsh Gaz, McConnochie try looks like an attack play developed over several phases with good line out ball, strong line out drive, a couple of mid-field set ups (slightly aimlessly), we go wide to Hamer Webb via Priestland and Matavesi, come back infield via Priestland to create space on both sides and then make a line break down the left via TdG to McConnochie with a dummy line from Joseph.

Priestland doesn't seem to be involved in the last phase as he has gone to the other side of the ruck to make it look like we are going right. This looks like a really good team try with lots of phases and different skill sets. They have been rare but we should acknowledge them when they happen.

Don't get me wrong, our attacking play for most of the season has been awful but it only seems fair to say that it is now improving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/09/2020 10:02 by Never In Doubt.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 10:16

Burns came off as extremely deluded in his interview, especially the part about him coming off the bench and his "tactical kicking" being good, when in reality it was absolutely terrible and cost us many times.

Quote:
gaz59
Maybe that's our attack strategy, more opportunistic than rehearsed?

That's been true for years, it's why our scores tend to come out of the blue from nothing, rather than sustained pressure.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 10:28

Hatley came back to bath in November and the season was suspended in March, Freddy left what in May?

So his comments might be true for Hooper, but a bit early for Hatley.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 11:02

Bear in mind Burns has also being doing some media rounds for this - see the footer to the Daily Mail interview on 12 Sept:

'Freddie Burns is an ambassador for the DFY Foundation which uses sport to make a positive impact in the community. It is a non-profit organisation aiming to inspire kids from disadvantaged backgrounds to achieve their full potential'.

The fact that he's quotable and currently in a situation where he has a bit more freedom to speak his mind means the media give him space/airtime.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: sirtidychris (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 11:28

Quote:
JFPC
Am I the only one who would have liked to have seen Fred and Spencer partnered behind this pack for a few games?

Would have been interesting for 60 mins until Freddie had to go off with leg cramping

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 11:36

Quote:
Never In Doubt
Bit harsh Gaz, McConnochie try looks like an attack play developed over several phases with good line out ball, strong line out drive, a couple of mid-field set ups (slightly aimlessly), we go wide to Hamer Webb via Priestland and Matavesi, come back infield via Priestland to create space on both sides and then make a line break down the left via TdG to McConnochie with a dummy line from Joseph.
Priestland doesn't seem to be involved in the last phase as he has gone to the other side of the ruck to make it look like we are going right. This looks like a really good team try with lots of phases and different skill sets. They have been rare but we should acknowledge them when they happen.

Don't get me wrong, our attacking play for most of the season has been awful but it only seems fair to say that it is now improving.

Wouldn't disagree with the view of it being a quality team try built through several phases. It was just not a clearly rehearsed set of defined moves but relying on players making the right decisions including the long floated miss pass to Hamer Webb

I have no problem with that at all, in fact I think it shows a far more mature attack minded philosophy than relying on the wonder move off first phase

Regarding RP's involvement, it was just a simple pop pass inside to Mcnally I think and then two standard shipped passes

The opportunity and line break came from others

Again, no real problem with that apart from it tells the opposition exactly what to expect from him

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 11:40

Quote:
Optimist
Gaz: 'He says Dempsey is a good coach with great ideas but is constrained by Hooper and Hatley' - I didn't read/hear that, but that sounds pretty credible.
NID: 'I think back development was de-prioritised' - that also sounds like a reasonable interpretation (and possibly a reasonable approach).

Gaz: 'Maybe that's our attack strategy, more opportunistic than rehearsed?' .... also agree that this is probably true - our aggressive defence has 'created' a lot of opportunities.

With Hooper's authority at an all-time high, it's fair to say that his approach has been vindicated, and so I do feel as though we can expect to see more attacking options layered on in the coming months.

It's here Opti

"Burns continued: “Girvs [attack coach Girvan Dempsey] is a good coach who has great ideas, but I don’t know whether he’s being overpowered by the forward pack and way Stuart Hooper and Neal Hatley [head coach] want to play the game."

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Never In Doubt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 11:47

Don't disagree on RP, I think his skill set is dependable rather than exceptional but that is what we need to rely on. I think he is a good game manager, passer and kicker but will not provide instinctive creative skills. This is why another play maker at 12 or 15 coming into the line is so important for us.

Looking back at was been posted in last few posts then maybe my point on the overall try is that there is probably a spectrum of ways tries are created.

i) Pack thudding forward in a very limited way
ii) Opportunistic turn overs
iii) Several phases of play designed to create space in a good attacking part of the pitch for key players to capitalise on
iv) Rehearsed first phase move

I think we are mostly using 1&2 but starting to see 3. 4 would be nice to add icing to the cake but given our strengths I think most of our tries will and should come from 1.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/09/2020 11:48 by Never In Doubt.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 12:48

Quote:
Never In Doubt
Bit harsh Gaz, McConnochie try looks like an attack play developed over several phases with good line out ball, strong line out drive, a couple of mid-field set ups (slightly aimlessly), we go wide to Hamer Webb via Priestland and Matavesi, come back infield via Priestland to create space on both sides and then make a line break down the left via TdG to McConnochie with a dummy line from Joseph.
Priestland doesn't seem to be involved in the last phase as he has gone to the other side of the ruck to make it look like we are going right. This looks like a really good team try with lots of phases and different skill sets. They have been rare but we should acknowledge them when they happen.

Don't get me wrong, our attacking play for most of the season has been awful but it only seems fair to say that it is now improving.

Don't know what game you were watching NID, because Ballsout keeps telling us all that Bath drop the ball or get turned over after one phase, and haven't strung two phases together for years. (Sm159)

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Never In Doubt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 13:06

Quote:
Dorset Boy
Quote:
Never In Doubt
Bit harsh Gaz, McConnochie try looks like an attack play developed over several phases with good line out ball, strong line out drive, a couple of mid-field set ups (slightly aimlessly), we go wide to Hamer Webb via Priestland and Matavesi, come back infield via Priestland to create space on both sides and then make a line break down the left via TdG to McConnochie with a dummy line from Joseph.
Priestland doesn't seem to be involved in the last phase as he has gone to the other side of the ruck to make it look like we are going right. This looks like a really good team try with lots of phases and different skill sets. They have been rare but we should acknowledge them when they happen.

Don't get me wrong, our attacking play for most of the season has been awful but it only seems fair to say that it is now improving.

Don't know what game you were watching NID, because Ballsout keeps telling us all that Bath drop the ball or get turned over after one phase, and haven't strung two phases together for years. (Sm159)

Yes but this period of the game happened after he stopped posting so it didn't exist in the world of Schrodinger's forums.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: ballsout (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 13:08

Quote:
Dorset Boy
Quote:
Never In Doubt
Bit harsh Gaz, McConnochie try looks like an attack play developed over several phases with good line out ball, strong line out drive, a couple of mid-field set ups (slightly aimlessly), we go wide to Hamer Webb via Priestland and Matavesi, come back infield via Priestland to create space on both sides and then make a line break down the left via TdG to McConnochie with a dummy line from Joseph.
Priestland doesn't seem to be involved in the last phase as he has gone to the other side of the ruck to make it look like we are going right. This looks like a really good team try with lots of phases and different skill sets. They have been rare but we should acknowledge them when they happen.

Don't get me wrong, our attacking play for most of the season has been awful but it only seems fair to say that it is now improving.

Don't know what game you were watching NID, because Ballsout keeps telling us all that Bath drop the ball or get turned over after one phase, and haven't strung two phases together for years. (Sm159)

It's there for all to see, 90% of the time.

One of the reasons why we ended up with 35% possession at the weekend.

Like I said, great win and dominant for most of the game but it's by far our achilles heel.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Never In Doubt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 13:11

I agree it has been a weakness but possession is a flawed statistic on its own. If you score after 3 phases and your opponent takes 10 phases to go nowhere then possession is irrelevant.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 14:43

Quote:
Never In Doubt
there is probably a spectrum of ways tries are created.
i) Pack thudding forward in a very limited way
ii) Opportunistic turn overs
iii) Several phases of play designed to create space in a good attacking part of the pitch for key players to capitalise on
iv) Rehearsed first phase move

I think we are mostly using 1&2 but starting to see 3. 4

That's a pretty good summary NID. However, I think ii requires breaking into 2 parts.

We've started to win turn overs quite a lot in this mini-season through ultra-agressive defence, through the competability of Spencer's box-kics, and through lineout pressure. However, we only use that 'turnover' ball by pumping it straight back in behind, and repeating the aggressive-pressure tactic.

From an entertainment point of view, I'd really like to see us keep the ball in hand on turnovers rather than instinctively kicking it away. But, we're averaging 4+ tries a game now, so it's more of an aesthetic complaint, than an effectiveness one.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Never In Doubt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 15:26

True Opti, it's always about decision making.

On the whole, I think if we win turnover ball in our 22 then the choice is to quickly box kick (or another territory based play) and then compete for the ball in the opposition half or counter attack knowing that you can still kick deep if it doesn't open up. However if you turn the ball over in a more attacking area then the DNA should be to get the ball to our most attacking weapons and go for the line.

Re: 5 into 4 : Sale v Bath Match Preview TEAM'S UP!
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 17 September, 2020 10:58

Thing is Opti I think I am being fair to Dempsey.

Its all about confidence.

If the backs have no confidence that the forwards are going to win good ball very consistently [/u]

If the backs are not confident on the scrumhalf delivering snappy accurate passes[u]
, THEN

Subconsciously they align flatter because they are concerned that the opposition will get the ball and attack off the base of the scrum, or our fly half will get the ball with a number 7 round his neck or our 10 will kick.

If the above is the case then about the last thing in the world you are thinking about is that move you worked on endlessly at Farleigh.


If the backs believe the ball is going to be won every time with the pack going forward,

If the backs believe that the pass to 10 is going to be perfect ,

It sets everything up for all sorts of moves to develop.

At the weekend I watched Saracens and they interviewed Alex Sanderson who said for years all Saracens could do was kick and tackle and then gradually, OVER TIME, became more expansive.

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