Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: CullyChief (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 06:21

There’s been much speculation lately about potential signings, to go alongside the confirmed recruitment of Jonny Gray and Sam Hidalgo-Clyde. In my view the very best news we could possibly hear would be Jannes signing a proper long contract (unless he has his own reasons for wanting a short term one). An absolutely top player.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Master Chief (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 06:49

He has been getting better every game and was immense yesterday. I hope we can keep him too.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Lowerwatha (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 08:27

With the Kolpak rules changing after 31 December 2020 will we able to accommodate overseas players? My understanding of it is if a player is already under contract they are fine, if so we need to get him signed up quickly!

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: minuteman (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 09:27

Quote:
Lowerwatha
With the Kolpak rules changing after 31 December 2020 will we able to accommodate overseas players? My understanding of it is if a player is already under contract they are fine, if so we need to get him signed up quickly!

Hi Lowerwatha. ... are you able to explain in broad terms what the Kolpak rules are ..

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: ouch!_that_hurts (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 10:24

This is purely my understanding, based on what I’ve read around the internet – and to be honest, a lot of it is vague.

The Kolpak regulations came into force in 2003 when the European Court of Justice ruled that anyone with a work permit from a country which has an associate trading agreement with the EU had the same rights as a European worker. Different sports in the UK (and I assume, the rest of Europe) have introduced different interpretations into their rules. As it’s an employment regulation it only applies to the professional game.

In the Premiership (& possibly the Championship) each team may only have two foreign players on the pitch at the same time. Those players from SA, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and other countries (see here) are covered by the Kolpak rules so are not counted as foreign. Aussies, NZ, USA, would be. My understanding is that in this case, nationality is based solely on what passport the player holds (as with any work permit). It’s possible therefore that an EQP could be excluded after the rules change.

According to an article in the Daily Mail, Exeter have 5 Kolpak players – possibly Kirsten, Vermuelen, Taione, Schickerling, Tuima and Cooper, although, potentially, Armand and Ewers may be included.

The rules will need to be rewritten to comply with new UK employment law post-Brexit and the RPA and PRL are pressing for increased numbers but I haven’t seen anything about existing player ‘rights’.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 10:38

Couple of articles that explain it far better than I could:
[www.rugbypass.com]

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

Currently the restrictions that apply to “overseas players” in the Prem (ie only 2 in the matchday 23) do not apply to South Africans and Islanders (because their countries have an agreement with the EU). So clubs can field as many Saffers, Tongans etc as they like (although lose cash if they don’t average 15 EQP), plus 2 kiwis/ozzies. Leaving the EU means the agreements no longer apply, so either:
1) PRL allows more overseas players; or
2) Squads have to be adjusted.

By my count, Chiefs are probably affected less than most next season as the majority of the squad is EQP or home nations (which will not be counted as “overseas”). Maybe 3 “overseas” players in Dennis, Kirsten and Vermeulen (as White off to Oz and Holmes and Taione both likely to retire).

Given the impact on other teams (only maybe Bath similarly unaffected), you might expect to see PRL being pushed to relax the rules by Sale, Glocs, Bristol etc.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 10:54

Quote:
ouch!_that_hurts

In the Premiership (& possibly the Championship) each team may only have two foreign players on the pitch at the same time. Those players from SA, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and other countries (see here) are covered by the Kolpak rules so are not counted as foreign. Aussies, NZ, USA, would be. My understanding is that in this case, nationality is based solely on what passport the player holds (as with any work permit). It’s possible therefore that an EQP could be excluded after the rules change.

According to an article in the Daily Mail, Exeter have 5 Kolpak players – possibly Kirsten, Vermuelen, Taione, Schickerling, Tuima and Cooper, although, potentially, Armand and Ewers may be included.

I see where you’re coming from and completely agree that it’s all quite vague. For me the difficulty comes with the way the Prem rules interact with Kolpak. As I understand it, the Kolpak ruling means that players from certain countries can’t be treated any differently to EU nationals - so the rule around “overseas” players can’t currently be applied to South Africans, Islanders etc. And your passport determines whether you can take advantage of this rule.

But then if you are an EQP (decided under RFU rules), then you can never be an overseas player (passport irrelevant). See definition of “Foreign Player”:
[www.englandrugby.com]

By my reading, this would mean that Armand, Tuima and Ewers are all fine as they are EQP. If Schickerling is not already EQP then he will be shortly.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: minuteman (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 11:04

Thanks all, i was Un/appreciative of the unrest this will cause As a result of Brexit.
Politics aside.. Jannes has fitted in so well and is providing the coaches a selection headache im sure .. but in a good way .

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Exeforever (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 12:18

One other point that I have not seen addressed yet is that if a player has no legal right to work in post-Brexit Britain the RFU/PRL presumably doesn't have the authority to set aside the law of the land and allow that player to play.

Instead they'd have to get a work permit and under current rules these are only for players who are right at the top of the game, so players with potential like Jacques or Jannes may not qualify.
Here is the link: Regulations

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: SimonG19 (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 12:26

Quote:
ouch!_that_hurts
This is purely my understanding, based on what I’ve read around the internet – and to be honest, a lot of it is vague.
The Kolpak regulations came into force in 2003 when the European Court of Justice ruled that anyone with a work permit from a country which has an associate trading agreement with the EU had the same rights as a European worker. Different sports in the UK (and I assume, the rest of Europe) have introduced different interpretations into their rules. As it’s an employment regulation it only applies to the professional game.

In the Premiership (& possibly the Championship) each team may only have two foreign players on the pitch at the same time. Those players from SA, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa and other countries (see here) are covered by the Kolpak rules so are not counted as foreign. Aussies, NZ, USA, would be. My understanding is that in this case, nationality is based solely on what passport the player holds (as with any work permit). It’s possible therefore that an EQP could be excluded after the rules change.

According to an article in the Daily Mail, Exeter have 5 Kolpak players – possibly Kirsten, Vermuelen, Taione, Schickerling, Tuima and Cooper, although, potentially, Armand and Ewers may be included.

The rules will need to be rewritten to comply with new UK employment law post-Brexit and the RPA and PRL are pressing for increased numbers but I haven’t seen anything about existing player ‘rights’.

For what it is worth in cricket it has been announced that Kolpak contracts will cease at the end of 2020. That includes existing contracts. There has been talk that the number of overseas players allowed will increase which would allow some Kolpakers to switch to overseas players but I don't think this has been confirmed.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: cornwallchief (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 12:43

I was ignorant and still befuddled by it all. Plenty of scope for politics and club chicanery!

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 13:47

Quote:
Exeforever
One other point that I have not seen addressed yet is that if a player has no legal right to work in post-Brexit Britain the RFU/PRL presumably doesn't have the authority to set aside the law of the land and allow that player to play.
Instead they'd have to get a work permit and under current rules these are only for players who are right at the top of the game, so players with potential like Jacques or Jannes may not qualify.
Here is the link: Regulations

I think that’s a different issue - any player from outside the EU will always require a visa/work permit (ie whatever is required by the immigration authorities) to play rugby in the UK. Kolpak means that when they have the visa (ie the right to work), they can’t be further restricted eg by rules that limit overseas players. All Prem rugby players from outside the EU should have a Tier 2 sportsman visa (or Tier 5 if short term like Pierretto):
[www.englandrugby.com]

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Exeforever (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 16:21

Agreed but my point was that after Dec 31 most of the current Kolpak players won't qualify for the requisite work permits as they don't meet the criteria, so we may have difficulty hanging on to our South Africans unless the law changes.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: EXDJ (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 18:47

Quote:
Exeforever
Agreed but my point was that after Dec 31 most of the current Kolpak players won't qualify for the requisite work permits as they don't meet the criteria, so we may have difficulty hanging on to our South Africans unless the law changes.

But they’re playing under work permits at the moment. Leaving the EU doesn’t change that. They still have to comply with immigrations requirements. From the link you sent me, it looks like they’ll have qualified under para (v):
“ v. A player must have played in at least 75% of matches, during the 24 months immediately prior to the date of application in the following leagues: PRO 14/PRO 12 and European Competitions, Super Rugby, Top 14 and European Competitions, English Premiership and European Competitions, English Championship, Welsh Premiership, Scottish Super 6.”

Kirsten and Vermeulen each did a couple of seasons at the Bulls/Sharks.

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Tribester (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 21:10

Hoggy is not EQP, and Scotland will soon be leaving the EU with England.

Does this mean he'll be counted as one of our 2 'foreign' players allowed per matchday squad??

However, the RFU could just continue with the current Kolpac rules, like they said they would do when Brexit first raised it's head. But with the current clumsy RFU administration, can we rely on them?

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: ouch!_that_hurts (IP Logged)
Date: 24 February, 2020 21:34

Hoggy won't be a foreign player - he is a UK citizen - but, as now, he won't count towards EQP funding

Re: Jannes Kirsten
Posted by: Wampum (IP Logged)
Date: 26 February, 2020 11:12

Jannes is the most improved player this season and yet another of Rob's shrewd signings.

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