My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: DaleDoback (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 19:54

This is all obviously speculation and I could be miles off, but I was just having a brainstorm and these are some of the conclusions I have cooked up.

Saracens and Leinster for me are going to and have had sustained dominance in the northern hemisphere club game. They are the standard. What is the difference between us and them? Take Saracens, they have built a squad that has an unbelievably strong core of young english players. They backed their homegrown young players, who with their clubs confidence have gone from strength to strength. They have built a squad of players who have developed a winning mentality and want to win for each other. On top of this, they have managed to add stardust to this strong foundation.

If you look over the last 3-4 years at the calibre of signings that wasps have made, you would argue that we have had as many if not more star players than Saracens. Why then are we falling short? For me this comes down to the clubs outlook and what they are trying to achieve. Obviously the aim of the game is to win, but there is a massive difference between being one dumb penalty away from winning the premiership, to sustained dominance in the prem and champions cup. Superstar signings can guarantee short term success, but without a strong foundation, you are never going to be dominant.

Since Richardson took over we have enjoyed a small peak off success, that I believe we are on the downward curve of now. In my opinion, in this period we have been a results driven club. This for me is where the problem lies. Being results driven is fine in the short term, playing your strongest team week in week out will ensure that you win your quota of games. However, it massively suffocates your chance of becoming a sustained and dominant forceI. I think dai is under immense pressure to win every week and he canít risk playing academy lads for fear of loosing. This for me is massively limiting in the long run.

The night is darkest just before the dawn (definitely didnít just quote batman) I feel like we are going to go through a major transitional period in the next few years. I imagine player turnover is going to be worse than it ever has this year and this is a perfect opportunity to press a much needed reset button. Instead of plugging the holes with superstar signings, the club needs to look to the future and be proactive. Invest in the academy and build a squad who want to play and win for the club. Obviously this is easier said than done, there would be trying times and results would be worse in the short term, but for me this is the only recipe to become a long term dominant force rather than a flash in the pan.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: kentwasp1 (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 20:15

Quote:
DaleDoback
This is all obviously speculation and I could be miles off, but I was just having a brainstorm and these are some of the conclusions I have cooked up.
Saracens and Leinster for me are going to and have had sustained dominance in the northern hemisphere club game. They are the standard. What is the difference between us and them? Take Saracens, they have built a squad that has an unbelievably strong core of young english players. They backed their homegrown young players, who with their clubs confidence have gone from strength to strength. They have built a squad of players who have developed a winning mentality and want to win for each other. On top of this, they have managed to add stardust to this strong foundation.

If you look over the last 3-4 years at the calibre of signings that wasps have made, you would argue that we have had as many if not more star players than Saracens. Why then are we falling short? For me this comes down to the clubs outlook and what they are trying to achieve. Obviously the aim of the game is to win, but there is a massive difference between being one dumb penalty away from winning the premiership, to sustained dominance in the prem and champions cup. Superstar signings can guarantee short term success, but without a strong foundation, you are never going to be dominant.

Since Richardson took over we have enjoyed a small peak off success, that I believe we are on the downward curve of now. In my opinion, in this period we have been a results driven club. This for me is where the problem lies. Being results driven is fine in the short term, playing your strongest team week in week out will ensure that you win your quota of games. However, it massively suffocates your chance of becoming a sustained and dominant forceI. I think dai is under immense pressure to win every week and he canít risk playing academy lads for fear of loosing. This for me is massively limiting in the long run.

The night is darkest just before the dawn (definitely didnít just quote batman) I feel like we are going to go through a major transitional period in the next few years. I imagine player turnover is going to be worse than it ever has this year and this is a perfect opportunity to press a much needed reset button. Instead of plugging the holes with superstar signings, the club needs to look to the future and be proactive. Invest in the academy and build a squad who want to play and win for the club. Obviously this is easier said than done, there would be trying times and results would be worse in the short term, but for me this is the only recipe to become a long term dominant force rather than a flash in the pan.

+1 in desperation. Today the nadir?

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Matt82 (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 20:28

I posted a few weeks ago about using this season now as one to blood the academy players who Dai see's a future for at the club. After watching that today and seeing some of the 'senior' players not tearing up trees this season I think it's even more imperative. We've seen from Willis in these last few games that we have talent there if Dai looks hard enough. If he doesn't start next week I'll seriously question the academy pathway to the first team.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: StevieWasp (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 20:39

I'm sure you'll find a way to complain about it even if Willis starts the next 5 games

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: ricohchezwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 20:45

I expect Willis to start next week anyway as we arenít exactly overrun with 8ís, shields is out Hughes is out Rieder is out Willis the younger out, Young May be injured..... so little choice



Not a Doctor and not a troll!!

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Shugs (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 20:51

I don't think anyone disputes that bringing youth through (if they are good enough) and combining with established talent is the way to go. It's hard to do though. As to whether the fans are patient enough to wait for this to play out if you want a litmus test have a look at this site when we lose and you'll have your answer. And franking that view is the last three weeks. The club had a stated strategy for these games going from academy prospects in game 1 to a tune up for first teamers today. We lost in achieving these aims and so far I've read that we can't attack, can't defend, have no worthwhile coaches, have no leaders, have no plan, can't manage games, don't care, have no cohesion and are not a team that plays for each other. There's absolutely no chance any DOR will be afforded the luxury of developing a team if it means incurring losses.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Bracken&Macken (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 21:14

Not long ago our academy produced 4 truelly exceptional players, all of whom are age wise in their sporting prime right now.

Two are still with us however we rarely see them, one has recently given up the sport and another was poached by a club who were cheating the rules at the time.

Itís all well nd good saying build the academy, but youíve got to keep and capitalise on these players.

Right now we lose a third of our squad each year and have no real direction or game plan. Our coaching set up is a shambles and doesnít look to be changing. We lack on field leadership and throw money at over rated Southern imports rather than rewarding performance.

If im an academy product, right now the last place I would be looking at is Wasps. Will be interesting if Umaga stays with us.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Andy1210 (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 22:03

Quote:
Bracken&Macken
Not long ago our academy produced 4 truelly exceptional players, all of whom are age wise in their sporting prime right now.
Two are still with us however we rarely see them, one has recently given up the sport and another was poached by a club who were cheating the rules at the time.

Itís all well nd good saying build the academy, but youíve got to keep and capitalise on these players.

Right now we lose a third of our squad each year and have no real direction or game plan. Our coaching set up is a shambles and doesnít look to be changing. We lack on field leadership and throw money at over rated Southern imports rather than rewarding performance.

If im an academy product, right now the last place I would be looking at is Wasps. Will be interesting if Umaga stays with us.

+1 Weíve hidden our lack of structure behind superstar signings. Exeter donít seem to be struggling in this competition whatever side they put out because they have a unified direction, structure and game plan that all the players at the club buy into and understand.

Weíve been caught with our trousers down by Wade leaving and Wilsonís about turn. As far as the Wilson episode goes we still have our trousers around our ankles and the unsightly view of Ian ĎI want our defence to be as exciting as our attackí Costello smooth talking his way up in the club whilst presiding over an abject defence. Time for Dai to pull his trousers back up and get a grip of the coaching set up rather than just sitting there stating the obvious. Too many soundbites coming out at the moment and the one that really rankles right now is Ďwe want the Ricoh to be our fortressí after the Exeter game.

Conceding an average of 31 points a game at home, having won once against 14 men, drawn once and lost four calls for surgery not a sticking plaster.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Penn Wasp (IP Logged)
Date: 11 November, 2018 22:27

I would think that Dai has been set some objectives on oerformance - is it his job to be given the means to achieve that and be responsible for how well we do.

Would be amazed if this is another a mix of current season as well as longer term development.
And yes, as part of the move the academy suffered which I am sure all anticipated and factored in (and part of the reason we brought in the stardust - that and drawing the crowds)

This means if he wants to use any academy player, he should be able to. If he does not, it is because he does not think it will make it more likely that we will win.

He will be spending to around the salary cap and now has HIS squad and coaching team.

And btw, how we still have a loss of I recall £3.7m last year - what would it be without the income beyond rugby...

So what is the core issue?
I wish Dai could tell us without talking soundbites and setting out the plan in a way I can understand and support.
Or we get the@#$%&soundbites, and based on what we see, make up our own minds.

A bit of communication maybe is overdue?
And real stuff - if more patronising sound bites I will be sick...

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Matt82 (IP Logged)
Date: 12 November, 2018 06:03

Quote:
StevieWasp
I'm sure you'll find a way to complain about it even if Willis starts the next 5 games

And if we lose our new ft 5 games I'm sure you'll carry on blindly thinking we'll turn it around when our squad is back to full strength. News check...even when we get some players back theres little depth out squad as there are some who aren't good enough.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: bigfecker (IP Logged)
Date: 12 November, 2018 07:16

Not long ago there was an Academy Manager called Matt who kicked out a lot of great players who now play for the competition. Some younger ones survived as they were 'his' players, not the previous managers. This was such a stupid thing.

Is the new 10 more expensive than Cips does anyone know?

It is pretty obvious that the money tree has been pruned and that is the reason the squad is not what it used to be.

The highest paid DoR needs to earn his crust now.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Westy68 (IP Logged)
Date: 12 November, 2018 08:34

I do agree that some Academy players so get more of an opportunity, especially covering the places that very average so called first team players take up.

Dai like other DORs has made some poor signings. There are a few players that should be nowhere near the first team squad and definitely need to be let go to release funds on the wage cap.

I would prefer to use an academy player then a player who clearly isnít good enough, taking a wage that he is not earning.

I appreciate that losing is very frustrating but long term we should rep the benefits

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: DaleDoback (IP Logged)
Date: 12 November, 2018 08:45

Honestly I think the crux of the problem is with Daiís outlook on the academy. So letís look who he has brought through into the senior squad in his tenure. Sam jones, Daly, Launchbury and wade all came through at a similar time and all 4 developed into top players before retirement was forced or chosen for a couple of them. These players were not developed strategically by dai, they were thrown in out of necessity, because the squad was so thin. I believe this baptism of fire has attributed to the levels that they have got to in their careers.

Since then the academy has stuttered with its production line, people chop this down to the move to cov. I donít think that this is the answer, the answer for me is that dai has had the resources to sign star players and has not had to use the academy to plug the gaps in his squad. In this period we have lost some players who have gone onto bigger and better things. As an ex tighthead, it is pretty embarrassing to have three props (in Williams, Hepburn, Obano), who were in your academy, decide to leave/not rated and then go on to be involved with England.

You then look at the last two years. Dai has brought through Jack Willis and Will Stuart. This again for has been because of mitigating factors. Willis got his break through injury, he played cameos off the bench and was tearing up, but as soon as the players who were injured came back he was back playing A league. In his second year of playing prem rugby, he had another break driven through injuries. He then played so well that he forced Dais hand and he became a genuine option for dai. Stuart played 2 or 3 first team games last year, which for me was baffling, with Moore off to Ulster (they would of known this pretty early on into the season) you would think it would of been a perfect opportunity to drip feed him some game time slowly. Then this year, there is little to no chance that without JCWís injury, he would of played a significant role.

As a young Acadmey player would you want to be at a club where no matter how well you were playing for your loan team, how well you were training, how much you were tearing up in the Prem Shield and Prem Cup, there was legitimately little chance you were going to break through unless the club had no other choice than to play you.

Re: My opinion of what the real problem is...
Posted by: Dgwasp (IP Logged)
Date: 12 November, 2018 08:56

It is a lot easier to draft in academy prospects when there is a backbone of leadership on the pitch to coach and provide example. We appear to lack the talismanic figures that can provide this and therefore when we do draft in academy players they are thrown in at the deep end, some would say that it acts as a very quick measure as to whether a player is good enough however different players need a different approach and need time to adapt, and that is where we seem to fail to support the future prospects. George Smith provided this leadership when he was here as well as the likes of Brad Davies.

In areas you can see signs of this improving with Stuart and West being slowly introduced and Stuart certainly proving very capable. However even if the academy is improving it will take some time to show and will never cover all areas of the pitch. In the mean time I guess Dai needs to continue bulking up the squad with Championship products where the academy falls short with players such as Rieder and Le Booj, but that will only have a limited return as not all players will take the step up.

It will be great once Gopps is back in and around the team as I think he can help provide this leadership. At the moment the influencual players at Wasps appear to be good players who lead by example rather than players with the experience and ability to influence others and take charge of tactical decisions.

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net