Current Page: 7 of 7
Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Aberavon Wizard (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 13:53

It will never happen of course but one year as an experiment with no seedings would be fascinating. The cream will always come to the top but what price a pool group of Leinster, Munster, Clermont and Saracens ! Ditto Wimbledon - Federer v Nadal on the first day !

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Angus67 (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 14:14

[quote Wilson Pickett][quote tedge][quote fair_weather_fan]

People here are getting far too hot under the collar over these two losses[/quote]

We are even though most of us expected the outcome. I suppose what is difficult to come to terms with is the confirmation of just how far short Saints are in a competiton of this quality. It is especially hard for those of us of a certain age who readily recall Saints at their peaks being equal to any side in Europe. Add to that the raised expectations caused by a marked improvement in performances at domestic level and we are brought down to earth with a bump. Perhaps the bitterest pill of all to swallow is the realisation that, for reasons all outlined many times, there seems to be absolutely b.....r all we can do about it ![/quote]


It is all about perspective, money talks. We have different league structures, different funding and funding rules.

exactly right. Quite simply it isn't a level playing field, an alternative to breaching the salary rules would be if relegation from the Prem was scrapped, and that league regarded as a second priority, then carefully manage the squad so that a full strength team is only fielded during European matches. To extract positives I expect the management will be picking up learning points from the last two matches, sometimes you need to take a step back to move forward, the tricky part is keeping spirits high. I very much am holding the faith and believe that we will be top of the domestic tree this year. COYS!

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Pot Hale (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 14:32

Commiserations, Saints fans - and thanks to those who made it over.

Boyd has Saints now where Leinster were in 2013/14. the IRFU change in policy to stop contributing to foreign player salaries, and invest instead in the provincial academies is beginning to reap dividends, with Leinster out in front. There are now 80 players going through the academies each year - on a 3-year cycle, with the better ones getting game opportunities with the senior squad.

Whilst it's understandable that people see Leinster as Ireland XV in disguise, a closer look at the 25 players they used across the two matches shows they had:
Kelleher - 20 year old hooker, Tracy 2nd rank, Byrne 3rd rank - Cronin out injured
Healy, Furlong, Porter - bench and starts - test caps. E Byrne 3rd rank
Fardy, Toner and Ryan - seasoned test players
Ruddock and van der Flier - seasoned test players
Doris - young 3rd rank No 8 with Conan out injured.
Gibson Park uncapped, and McGrath capped
Sexton capped, and Byrne with 3 caps, Frawley - young 3rd rank with 17 club caps
Henshaw & Ringrose - seasoned test caps
Larmour, Lowe and D Kearney - youth and capped experience.

12 are regular current Ireland squad players allowing that J McGrath, Jo Ryan, Scannell, Herring, Kleyn, O'Mahony, Stander, Murray, Marmion, Carty, Farrell, Aki, Earls, Stockdale, Conway all play at other provinces, so Leinster is not quite the Ireland XV. But obviously, given the smaller number of teams then inevitably you get a greater concentration of capped players in the teams, with Leinster to the fore.

It's also noticeable about the proportion of Ireland Qualified Players in the provincial teams given the quota restrictions on foreign players in their squads. Munster, Leinster and Ulster have over 90% of their senior squads as Ireland Qualified Players. The Premiership average is 67%. I get the impression that Boyd wants to change that over the next 2-3 seasons and build/develop domestic talent.

It's worth it.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 15:23

Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
It will never happen of course but one year as an experiment with no seedings would be fascinating. The cream will always come to the top but what price a pool group of Leinster, Munster, Clermont and Saracens ! Ditto Wimbledon - Federer v Nadal on the first day !

A halfway step here might be to draw teams according to seeding but not worry about separating those from the same country. Munster-Leinster or Saints-Tigers would be incredibly tasty back-to-back group fixtures that are currently impossible and very unlikely under current rules.



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 16:02

If anyone wants to feel a teeny bit better about yesterday, have a look at Clermont v Bath - BP try scored by Clermont on 20 mins.
Currently 40-14, just on half-time - although the last pass for Bath's second try just now was forward.
Might be a long second half for Bath.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Sans Culottes (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 16:13

Just watched the match. We were well beaten by a better side, But

Try 1 What advantage?
Try 2. Block on Biggar.

If Wayne Barnes had been officiating I don’t think either of those would have been given

2nd half try clearly knocked on on the floor. Leinster knew it , Saints knew it , only the officials didn’t.

Again we were beaten by a better side, but the standard of officiating must improve.

Whoops typo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/12/2019 20:58 by Sans Culottes.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 16:23

Yes Leinster taught us a lesson. But we r still in with a good shout of qualifying for the quarter finals looking at Pool standings which considering where we were 2 seasons ago is amazing progress.

But until we get our pack beefed up and our defence tight, I don't see us getting silverware.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 16:31

Also has a thread on this forum ever hit 10,000 views because the views for this thread at the time of posting have already exceeded 9,500?

St Marlowe predicted the demise of this forum when he stepped down as a moderator a few years back. So it's good to see the forum growing in popularity if anything, with lots of free debate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/12/2019 16:33 by SaintMaul.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 17:18

Quote:
SaintMaul
Also has a thread on this forum ever hit 10,000 views because the views for this thread at the time of posting have already exceeded 9,500?
St Marlowe predicted the demise of this forum when he stepped down as a moderator a few years back. So it's good to see the forum growing in popularity if anything, with lots of free debate.

Oy
No politics
Next thing you know there will be talk of cliques
And St Ed will be back administering to the ill informed

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 17:27

Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
Wilson Pickett
He meant half the first team Ajack, come on mate



Leinster Lady thank you.

In what other competitions do teams from the same group play in the QF?


Madness

Same reason that in the Premiership play offs 1st plays 4th and 2nd plays 3rd. Being the “best” qualifier gives you the privilege of playing the “worst/ weakest” qualifier. “Rank has it’s privileges” as a senior manager once told me wanting to put me in my place (he didn’t). It would be unfortunate if we did qualify as the last place team and did end up having to play them again. For me it not about playing them again the the QF, I’m just fed up at continually having to play them in Europe, be a change to play say Connacht for once and not because they aren’t so good as Leinster. Just be good to play other teams. We ended up playing against Castres for year on year, that was a bore too for me.

On yesterday we all knew we’d be in with a serious chance of a tonking, we’d debated it all week. Well, no surprise was it? It was great to score 3 tries. 2 tries better than last week! Great experience for some of the younger players. Saving some of the more senior players and giving them rest and a chance to recover a bit. We got nailed, most expected it, I certainly did. We’re still in this. We can beat Benny with a 5 to get 14 and we have a shot at the QF’s. If we beat Benetton and lose to Lyon we’ll probably come 2nd in our group but probably won’t qualify. Actually I hope that this is the case so we can rest up a bit and go for the Premiership. But at the end of it all it wouldn’t surprise me if we do qualify, draw Leinster away and beat them! Then the tune of the Leinster v Saints thread will be different won’t it?



Of course it’s about seeding but IMHO you shouldn’t be able to play a team from your group. The logic is simple too, not just that it’s boring playing the same side 3 times (the governing body may have forgotten that this is a spectator sport) but also we’ve been in a group with one of the top 2 sides. That therefore made it harder for us to qualify and as such should be adjusted.

It happens in other competitions but this is rugby which is still backward in some areas.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 17:57

Quote:
Deesaint
Quote:
SaintMaul
Also has a thread on this forum ever hit 10,000 views because the views for this thread at the time of posting have already exceeded 9,500?
St Marlowe predicted the demise of this forum when he stepped down as a moderator a few years back. So it's good to see the forum growing in popularity if anything, with lots of free debate.

Oy
No politics
Next thing you know there will be talk of cliques
And St Ed will be back administering to the ill informed

I'd forgotten the whole cliques thing! (Sm128)

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Matthew (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 18:25

Quote:
Sans Culottes
Try 2. Block on Biggar.

Didn't spot that watching live, but I've just watched back and it does explain the rather large hole in the defence through which Lowe was able to canter!



ACTUAL TRAINING FOOTAGE FROM
BEHIND THE SCENES AT SARACENS:
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37800000/Scrooge-McDuck-gif-mickey-and-friends-37815657-245-188.gif

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 18:57

Quote:
tedge
I reckon it WOULD surprise you actually !

It wouldn’t.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Saint Kris (IP Logged)
Date: 15 December, 2019 20:47

We played arguably the strongest team in the competition & cam up short. Gives us something to aspire to ...

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Stevie Myler's right boot (IP Logged)
Date: 16 December, 2019 07:30

I rewatched the game and whilst I don’t think it would ultimately have changed the final result we were seriously hard done to by a poor refereeing team who were only looking for infringing from one side and it wasn’t Leinster. There were at least half a dozen really bad/missed decisions. Based on the laws Leinster should have seen 2 cards - off the ball tackle on Biggar and a shoulder charge to head in ruck from Ryan. We need to be more clinical in the red zone and that has to be the big takeaway for us. Like I said I don’t think it would have ultimately changed the result however they caused momentum swings. Onwards and upwards for the next tranche of Prem fixtures. Target has to be at least 2 from 3 wins.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 16 December, 2019 09:17

Aside from the result, I thought for the most part, our young players showed what potential they have. They never gave up when it would have been totally understandable to have let their heads drop, especially after the first 2 tries.

Then there were the senior players that showed their class. I thought Biggar, Proctor & Big T were immense, but you can't do it on your own. I don't know if having the full first choice side available would have made much of a difference though.

I was a little unsure why we had to play the end with only 14. We saw Bean being refused when he looked like he was coming back on. What was the reason for that? Because he came off for a tactical substitution?

Overall, proud of the team and i think we'll learn from the experiences and get better as a result.


Other than that, a huge thanks to all the Leinster fans that we met. Everyone really welcoming and there was some great banter from both sides! Even Leinster fans around us were singing "Oh when the Saints" is support of us. I think they were well aware of the gulf in class and appreciated that we came to play the full 80.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 16 December, 2019 09:39

Fascinating!

Money is one thing in terms of players, but opportunity is the other. Only four clubs get a shout at up and coming players. Those
players are shepherded through an established country targeted system by international grade coaches. Those of GB and France are spread across a multitude of clubs, and a multitude of systems

We focus on the players here, but we must also look at the coaching structures. The IRFU make sure the best coaches are put in place alongside Irish coaches so the future proofing is working steadily.

And then the IRFU appoint Andy Farrell as Joe Scmidt's replacement. Are they simply saying they don't have an Irishman ready yet?

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: offshorerules (IP Logged)
Date: 16 December, 2019 11:51

For those of you that travelled over, thanks for coming and I hope we'll see everyone again. Nice atmosphere at the match but boy was it cold!

Just an answer re Farrell and the Irish coaching job. I think Farrell's appointment was as much about continuity than about there not being an Irish person ready yet. Mark McCall, Conor O'Shea are two that come to mind and obviously Leo Cullen would be in with a shout too I think but it probably would go against what appears to be a fairly well thought through plan. I think the plan is to get the best coaches available it provincial level and let their coaching filter up into the national side as evidenced by Munster getting Larkham and Rowntree in this year.

Anyway, I enjoyed the forum and good luck for the future guys.

Re: Leinster v Saints
Posted by: Wilson Pickett (IP Logged)
Date: 16 December, 2019 17:40

Thank you for your kind words.... can I please be cheeky and ask why Ireland, with that sensible structure, constantly under achieve at the World Cup. I am always surprised by that.

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