Current Page: 1 of 2
Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Ady32 (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:02

I was surprised that Eddie named Umaga in his training squad instead of James.

However, thinking about it, i think its the right decision for James. IMO this apprentice thing that Eddie has going is a double edged sword. For example it looks like Marcus Smith is nowhere, so is he an example of someone who juts didn't make the grade, picked too early, or perhaps working on things and will come back into the reckoning in a year or so? I think its better that James matures a little away from Eddie and make him pick him as a full squad member in due course.

in the same vain,I also have some concerns about how he will treat Dingwall and Moon!

Thought?

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:05

In my view, the less exposed to him and his methods the better, however Iím biased Iím 110% club and at least -10% country.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Tarnelo (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:22

I quite like the 'apprentice' idea (although not the name) provided its purpose is to introduce promising younger players to the international set-up, without any intention to pick them in the short term (and provided they know that).

However, I can't help feeling that EJ makes what seem to be odd / bold selections purely to create a stir and to suggest he sees something that others don't. I don't think Paul Hill and (notably) Teimana Harrison amongst others have been well-served by his somewhat brutal policy and I share Ady32's concern for Moon and Dingwall.

As for Umaga, he isn't an apprentice pick anyway but if EJ is looking for a young fly-half, he seems to have overlooked Marcus Smith, Max Malins, Joe Simmonds, James Grayson and maybe others that are better - in my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/01/2020 10:28 by Tarnelo.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:31

The more you take a "punt" on young talent the higher the failure rate will be if indeed you class it as a failure. Jones actually uses a lot of players so a high number will not go on to make the cut. The level of detail they will go into and the feed back they will get regarding what specific skills or conditioning they want will be mind blowing ir really isn't just a case of pulling a few names out of a hat and seeing what works.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:33

I'm happy for Grayson not to picked yet. He is in the difficult position where he is very much 2nd choice behind Biggar at the moment. Umaga has come to the fore with Sopoaga being poor and Gopperth being broken.

I think next season, we'll see Grayson shine more and step out from Biggar's shadow. Once Grayson is on an equal footing and is chosen ahead of Biggar in big games, Eddie will come calling. I think its also important to look a number of options where Sarries player currently occupy the position because it may be that they aren't selected for the next couple of years.

Grayson has plenty of time. I'd much prefer him to stay with the club, become a top class Premiership 10 then go to England and nail down the jersey.

As for Moon and Dingers. It will be great experience but I do not see them featuring in anything other that the Italy match. Perhaps Eddie has picked based on whats going on at Saints. Moon has been quality for the last 18 months so is worth a look. Dingwall is certainly backup at the moment, but also has dual nationality options. Perhaps Eddie is ensuring that colours are nailed firmly to the English mast with an eye for the future.

Its a real shame that Mitchell has been injured, otherwise I think he'd be a sure fire starter!

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:39

Quite like Umaga, and Grayson, who i thought may have the most of the 3, including Smith, but he doesnt seem to be getting the game time and hasnt looked that consistent...???

So, as a taster and no more, then i can see a little value being included, but i also wouldn't put any more credence, as yet, in it being little more than, they're england qualified and thereby on the radar.

It is not like you are seriously looking to cap them at this point in time.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 10:45

also, if Umaga does go on to become a world class 10, Eddie would kick himself if he didn't get him England qualified.

Part of me thinks that anyone selected that has a choice of nations, with any hint of star quality is being selected to ensure any future is English.

Cokanasiga
Underhill
Heinz
Dingwall
Umaga
tried with Rees-Zammit

you would have thought that Ribbans would be in the mix if he wasn't injured.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:27

I feel sorry for Joe Simmonds in this debate. Iíve seen more of him than I have Umaga but personally I donít think Umaga is anywhere near Joe Simmonds or Grayson for that matter. Iím not keen on Marcus Smith but Iíd say that bearing in mind heís been involved in training as an ďapprenticeĒ, horrible term by the way, and Umaga has played very little Premiership rugby and is in a lower tier European competition, Iíd think he has a right to be ďpeevedĒ about it. Iím disillusioned with Jones, some of the decisions around whoís picked against who isnít just seems bizarre to me. Iím sorry but Umaga shouldnít be anywhere near that squad for me and I feel sorry for Dombrandt too.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: BuckSt (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:53

This is EJ all over- he makes the public, press and players ask question. If it motivates some then they come on leaps and bounds- I see him doing this with dombrandt- heís said he isnít test fit and I can see dombrandt putting time and effort into this for the next year. Additionally, he brings players in to camp to see them up close and not only their playing ability but the culture and rapport and intensity around the camp. Some selected will fall by the wayside and I fear that this may happen to Umaga under Jones similar to Cipriani. In the same way I am a little apprehensive about Moon and Dingwall but I hope Grayson plays and motivates him so when the tome comes that Ford is surplus to requirements he can step up and nail down the position maybe under the mentorship of a more stable coach.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: ramseysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 11:57

Quote:
smitferbrainz
In my view, the less exposed to him and his methods the better, however Iím biased Iím 110% club and at least -10% country.

As am I.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: fair_weather_fan (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:02

Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.

Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:03

Like Malins but appears injury prone...
Umaga was held back by DY so no wonder he hasnt got games...

I agree, the cynical take is that they are ' qualified' above all else...

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:39

Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:46

Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:50

Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

Thanks for that information Neil. Just what I was looking for. Explains why he is probably not looking towards Samoa or the ABís. I still think Jimmy May feel aggrieved but at least heís not been scarfed away by Eddie Jones too so heís available for us.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:55

Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

Thanks for that information Neil. Just what I was looking for. Explains why he is probably not looking towards Samoa or the ABís. I still think Jimmy May feel aggrieved but at least heís not been scarfed away by Eddie Jones too so heís available for us.

Youre welcome mate

I think in taking Dingwall and Furbank and knowing Biggar is away, may have counted against Grayson, as I do not think that Umaga has any chance of making the team, he is just being involved around the squad and looked at

N I think its great Jones does this... we all agreed after what happened to Lewis for world cup

I am sure if James carries on, he will get his chance

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: John Tee (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:56

Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

And that is rugby qualification in a nutshell....who gets first dibs first.
Tbf, Jones has never made any bones about that...he selects whoever the rules will allow... but the Pacific islanders get screwed come what may....

This is a general observation not one directed at Umaga specifically.
I still think Grayson could turn out the best of the 3 but none of them are tearing it up like Cips did at the age of 19, 20.. imv.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: smitferbrainz (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 12:59

Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

Thanks for that information Neil. Just what I was looking for. Explains why he is probably not looking towards Samoa or the ABís. I still think Jimmy May feel aggrieved but at least heís not been scarfed away by Eddie Jones too so heís available for us.

Youre welcome mate

I think in taking Dingwall and Furbank and knowing Biggar is away, may have counted against Grayson, as I do not think that Umaga has any chance of making the team, he is just being involved around the squad and looked at

N I think its great Jones does this... we all agreed after what happened to Lewis for world cup

I am sure if James carries on, he will get his chance

Yep, spot on. Itís got to benefit the players. Itíll be great for Dingwall, Furbs and Moon just to get the exposure. Think your right about Umaga although it is a bit surprising that he doesnít have the monicker of apprentice like Mitch. James is class so he will break through as you say.

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 13:07

Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
smitferbrainz
Quote:
fair_weather_fan
Grayson isnt anywhere near ready for England although I appreciate the op isnt saying he is either.
Marcus Smith is playing well in an average quins team and still very young. Could have got battered through over exposure but has come through it.

I think were lucky that Eddie has overlooked Teimana - we wouldnt have a team left

Donít disagree with any of this but I have to say that if Grayson isnít anywhere near ready for England then the same can be said for Umaga. Iíd have thought with his family history heíd have wanted to play for the ABís however I donít know if his qualification is on residency or family. That said I could quite understand if James Grayson felt very disappointed seeing this. Sorry but Iíve no time for Eddie Jones. Leaving it there as I donít want to get told off.

He was born in Harrogate and been through the whole English system, thinks of himself as English with Island heritage... his Dad played for Samoa, his uncle for Kiwis

And that is rugby qualification in a nutshell....who gets first dibs first.
Tbf, Jones has never made any bones about that...he selects whoever the rules will allow... but the Pacific islanders get screwed come what may....

This is a general observation not one directed at Umaga specifically.
I still think Grayson could turn out the best of the 3 but none of them are tearing it up like Cips did at the age of 19, 20.. imv.

Interesting, as I agree with you, that if available Jones will take them, but he is trying to get the up and coming youngsters involved... I love the apprentice idea... just not the name....

N the fact I like most about tis new squad, is 8 uncapped players... all English born!

Re: Grayson jn vs Umaga
Posted by: St Saltaire (IP Logged)
Date: 21 January, 2020 19:39

Grayson, Umaga and Smith all have different qualities. Smith looked exceptional 2 years ago but seems to have been over exposed. EJ does seem very capricious at times. Teimana went from best no. 7 in England to nowhere. I rate Lewis Ludlam highly but would pick Teimana ahead of him for Saints if we could only play one of them. Luckily we usually have both!

Current Page: 1 of 2
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net