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Starting XV post July
Posted by: chappers_saint (IP Logged)
Date: 30 May, 2020 22:23

Now we know who our leavers are and some idea who is on the way, I want to look forward to who we can start with.

Here is my effort;

1. Van Wyke
2. Haywood
3. Franks
4. Lawes
5. Ribbans
6. Isiekwe
7. Ludlam
8. Harrison c
9. Mitchell
10. Biggar
11. The Rhino
12. Hutch
13. Dingers
14. Mallinder
15. Furbank

13 was a tough one with Proctor.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 30 May, 2020 22:34

Front row doesn't seem to fill me with much confidence but I donít think there are many other options that would.

I would start Moon in the 2nd row and drop Courtney to 6. Isiekwe on the bench for me.

Iíd also start Francis at 12 and Hutch at 13. I think Hutch is best at 13 and Francis offers us a lot of stability.

Also Collins would be on the wing for me. Eagerly awaiting to see where Mallinder settles. Would like him at fullback pushing Furbank.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: chappers_saint (IP Logged)
Date: 30 May, 2020 22:38

I left out Francis as I'm not sure on his fitness, he would be my 12. Very quiet on the matter.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 00:17

1. Waller (if fit) otherwise Van Wyk
2. Haywood
3. Franks
4. Lawes
5. Ribbans
6. Isiekwe
7. Ludlam
8. Harrison
9. Mitchell
10. Biggar
11. The Rhino
12. Francis
13. Dingwall
14. Collins
15. Furbank

I'd agree Dingwall starts. I can see him developing into a lynchpin player for us.

I'd be interested in trying South Africa's 6/2 bench split with Mallinder and a scrum half as the bench backs. Our pack isn't powerful so have a first half pack and a second half pack expecting players only have to give their all for 40 mins.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Stillgrinning (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 06:16

1. Waller (if fit) otherwise Van Wyk
2. Haywood
3. Franks
4. Moon
5. Ribbans
6. Lawes
7. Ludlam
8. Harrison
9. Mitchell
10. Biggar
11. The Rhino
12. Francis (if fit) or Hutchinson
13. Proctor
14. Collins
15. Furbank

Replacements - Painter, Fish, Hill, Coles, Taylor, Mallinder, Dingwall

Try and forgive me if I have 3 looseheads or something equally crass, but otherwise my rationale is as follows - too early for Isiekawe to be involved, and we should have virtually everyone fit and out of protocols by now.

Moon in the engine room for bulk, Lawes at 6 for experience.

Collins and Big T on the wings, Francis & Proctor in the centre for stability, defence, organisational ability as well as flair. Tough on Hutch early on but stability and defence will be key early on.

Coles to cover 4, 5, & 6

Mallinder to cover 10 - 15, Dingwall to inject something if necessary.

Rotation is the key but it will also depend on who our first game is, and where it is - we will have different 15s for different teams and different weather and different pitches I'm sure.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: saint krige (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 08:45

Looking at these starting XV's it'c clear we have a really strong team. Biggest questions for me are at 13 & 15. Think the Proctor/ Hutchinson are both great players. Same with Furbank/Mallinder at 15. Good to have these headaches!

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 08:53

I worry about 12, sorry but Hutchinson defence really doesnít cut it for me, we look like we can be cut apart at any time when he plays there.

He really needs to up his defence or it will affect his international aspirations and be the difference between him being a good player and a fantastic player.

Be interesting to see how Dingwall progresses, as a really exciting talent and all talk about him being a great leader.

And Harry??? Where do we play Harry??? A Back 3 of Furbank, Big T n Harry? Or do we go with him at 12 and see if his defence is better now shoulder healed properly?

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 09:21

Quote:
Saint Maul
I'd be interested in trying South Africa's 6/2 bench split with Mallinder and a scrum half as the bench backs. Our pack isn't powerful so have a first half pack and a second half pack expecting players only have to give their all for 40 mins.

I would be reluctant to see this with the attrition rate of our backs. There seems to be plenty of occasions when we seem to lose backs left write and centre. Francis has horrible luck, We canít take any risks with Furbankís recent history with head knocks, Biggar always looks like he is carrying an injury. I think it isnít too much of a risk for what little gain we would have.

Strangely enough if the depth in our forward, more specifically the front row was stronger I would probably be more of an advocate. Even with fresh subs we donít have the players to make a significant impact coming off the bench against the teams such as Exeter so swapping like for like albeit a little fresher does nothing.

Plus out game isnít based around forward dominance and winning collisions, where as SAís is. We want to move the ball through the hand and there seems little point if it is to a scrum half on the wing.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 09:24

We have a squad, it will rotate and evolve due to form, injury, international availability and who we're playing - we'll might only put out a specific set of 15 players (let alone 23) a couple of times a season.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 09:26

Certainly some good looking sides there, at least on paper. Interesting that so far nobody has included Wood or Gibson starting or benched. I hope this might be a breakthrough season for Sleightholme who seems to offer Collins' pace plus a better defence. Hopefully Grayson will continue to improve.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 09:51

IF the 2019-20 season resumes followed shortly by the 2020-21 season then players are going to play a horrific number of games. Like others have said rotation will be key. Even with injuries we should be aiming for no player playing more than 2 games out of every 3. Some positions like 8, 9 and 10 that will be harder given quality in depth isn't ideal and props if we get injuries.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 10:08

Quote:
Awaywin
Quote:
Saint Maul
I'd be interested in trying South Africa's 6/2 bench split

Strangely enough if the depth in our forward, more specifically the front row was stronger I would probably be more of an advocate. Even with fresh subs we donít have the players to make a significant impact coming off the bench against the teams such as Exeter so swapping like for like albeit a little fresher does

If you haven't seen Squidge's analysis of why South Africa won the World Cup by their innovative use of the 6/2 bench it's well worth a watch. It's the best analysis I've seen of why South Africa justifiably won

I'd say we do have the players to make an impact:

2nd row: 2 replacements instead of one from Moon, Api, Coles and Isiekwe would all bring something.

Back row: 1 replacement e.g. Wood, Gibson or Tonks

Loosehead prop: Not a huge amount between Waller and van Wyk so each at full steam for 40 mins instead of one 65 mins the other 15 mins would see an overall increased impact IMHO.

Very little to choose between our 3 hookers so the same applies.

Whilst Franks is clearly top dog at tighthead both Painter and Hill offer a lot with Painter more for scrum power packs like Exeter and Hill more mobile packs.

It's a very different way of viewing the bench and my take is we'll see other teams adopting South Africa's approach like rugby league defence took over from the drift defence.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Saint Stokey (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 10:15

Also no mention of Autetac or Reid who both come in.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Saintfanh (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 10:46

Agree completely on the importance of rotation and the challenge here is how to ensure continuity, consistency and players knowing each other well when the team is changing constantly - it seems coaches and players will have a much greater challenge here than in the past.

On our ideal 'first XV' selection I think Francis and Proctor have to our first choice centres at the moment. They offer plenty in attack but are far stronger defensively. It's tough on Dingwall and Hutch as both have such potential; the latter needs to work on his defence but I reckon will probably make the bench at least initially as he offers more cover across the backline and can create opportunities from very little. Dingwall hasn't done a great deal wrong and if he can increasingly show the incisive line breaking and defensive capabilities we've seen in the last two seasons it will make rotation at 13 much easier and the debate might shift to how we use Proctor best. On Proctor: he's had real off games this season as he adapts to the premiership but when he's been at his best you can see he could be world class and he would be one of my first names in our 23. Francis is by far our strongest 12: injury is the main issue and perhaps ideally he could be a bit heavier where Symons has added a lot by drawing defenders in but I think Francis offers much more beyond that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2020 23:08 by Saintfanh.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: tedge (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 11:00

I forgot about Autetac but wasn't Reid just injury cover until either the end of the season or 30th June whichever is earliest and we presumably have a full complement of fit props with Waller , Autetac, Franks, Garside, Hill, Hughes, Iyogun, van Wyk, Painter, and Trinder ? I don't know who are loose and tight though !

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Hantsaintsrus4 (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 12:49

If it is uncontested scrums for infection control big lumps may be redundant. Better for us v Exeter?

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 16:40

Quote:
Saint Maul
Quote:
Awaywin
Quote:
Saint Maul
I'd be interested in trying South Africa's 6/2 bench split

Strangely enough if the depth in our forward, more specifically the front row was stronger I would probably be more of an advocate. Even with fresh subs we donít have the players to make a significant impact coming off the bench against the teams such as Exeter so swapping like for like albeit a little fresher does

If you haven't seen Squidge's analysis of why South Africa won the World Cup by their innovative use of the 6/2 bench it's well worth a watch. It's the best analysis I've seen of why South Africa justifiably won

I'd say we do have the players to make an impact:


2nd row: 2 replacements instead of one from Moon, Api, Coles and Isiekwe would all bring something.

Back row: 1 replacement e.g. Wood, Gibson or Tonks

Loosehead prop: Not a huge amount between Waller and van Wyk so each at full steam for 40 mins instead of one 65 mins the other 15 mins would see an overall increased impact IMHO.

Very little to choose between our 3 hookers so the same applies.

Whilst Franks is clearly top dog at tighthead both Painter and Hill offer a lot with Painter more for scrum power packs like Exeter and Hill more mobile packs.

It's a very different way of viewing the bench and my take is we'll see other teams adopting South Africa's approach like rugby league defence took over from the drift defence.

Thank you for sharing an interesting watch with a nice sprinkling of humour.

There were a few pertinent points that I took from it above and beyond the bench split, which would make a bigger impact on my opinion. The masterful kicking game controlling the zones on the pitch, the rock solid defence and the level of analysis. I would always be reluctant to draw comparisons from international to club due to the player pool available, nature of the competitions and smaller number of teams to analyse with the time to do it.

With regards to the 6/2 split personnel plays a big part. For South Africa to have the two best front rows in the tournament plays into this. If we donít have one dominant front row we definitely donít have a second. I would like us to dominate or at least get parity but for me it is personnel more than keeping the players fresh.

Where we see others take up this strategy it will only be a matter of time by as always the way to counter a big pack will be to move them around and move the ball quick. To do this you would want to move the ball wide and have the back in play, which in my opinion suits our current personnel.

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: chappers_saint (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 16:41

Quote:
tedge
Certainly some good looking sides there, at least on paper. Interesting that so far nobody has included Wood or Gibson starting or benched. I hope this might be a breakthrough season for Sleightholme who seems to offer Collins' pace plus a better defence. Hopefully Grayson will continue to improve.

Another not featuring is Api, if you put Lawes at 6 I'd like Api in at 4 to at some weight and power.

For me Van Wyke has it over Waller, I dont see him as much of a penalty machine and I like his turnover work.

Could Dingers be at 12? Have him as Francis understudy and then Proctor/Hutch at 13?

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: Awaywin (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 17:57

[quote chappers_saint][quote tedge]Another not featuring is Api, if you put Lawes at 6 I'd like Api in at 4 to at some weight and power.[/quote]

So who are you pairing Api with? Basically who are you dropping!

Re: Starting XV post July
Posted by: ramseysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 31 May, 2020 22:06

I've just read the whole thread...

Glad I'm not Chris Boyd.

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