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Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Jazzman (IP Logged)
Date: 27 July, 2020 16:01


Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 27 July, 2020 16:15

Really good to see Japan and Fiji playing some more top level rugby between RWCs but really worried about player burnout. Not sure what the Japanese domestic schedule is and how it's been impacted by COVID so they might be OK (and potentially do even more damage to NH reputations that they would anyway!) but it's gonna be even more games for the British, Irish, French and Italian players. I'm guessing the majority if Fijian players play in those leagues too? Unless they rock up with a load of unknown players and give everyone the run around anyway!

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 27 July, 2020 20:32

This to my view is sensible. The game is in dire need for money. Yes it will impact us but looking at the wider aspects I think this is sensible.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: lilyg (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 07:26

It's crazy! here's where we are without these ridulous games being included:

Oct 24: Prem Final; Ire v Ita
Oct 25 Eng v BaaBaas
Oct 31 Eng v Ita; Wal v Sco; Fra v Ire
Nov 7/8 Rest
Nov 14/15 Pool games
Nov 21/22 Pool games; Prem starts
Nov 28/29 Pool games; Prem
Dec 5/6 Test Comp 'Final(s)'; Prem
Dec 12/13 European Cups start

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 07:59

Quote:
lilyg
It's crazy! here's where we are without these ridulous games being included:
Oct 24: Prem Final; Ire v Ita
Oct 25 Eng v BaaBaas
Oct 31 Eng v Ita; Wal v Sco; Fra v Ire
Nov 7/8 Rest
Nov 14/15 Pool games
Nov 21/22 Pool games; Prem starts
Nov 28/29 Pool games; Prem
Dec 5/6 Test Comp 'Final(s)'; Prem
Dec 12/13 European Cups start

Self-interest, not going under financially and player welfare collide yet again.

Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise if it forces a fundamental re-think but it feels like watching a car crash waiting to happen. Hope I'm wrong.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Aberavon Wizard (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 08:53

As I see it the clubs will lose their International players from late October till the start of the European Cup. The 'stars' will then have a full schedule all the way until June at which time some could be off to ZA for a Lions tour ( behind closed doors ) followed by pre-season training into the 21/22 campaign. Were it not for the fact that the RFU is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt, then the spectre of central contracts would surely have raised it head again.

Imho we should have written off all 19/20competitions and started again afresh in September. I understand the financial implications but for the good of the game, the welfare of the players and the safety of the supporters, that is how it should be. Judging from what I have seen of football, cricket, golf and F1 without spectators, I really cannot get too excited about the resumption of the 19/20 season as we, as fans, will not be part of it.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 09:18

Aberavon, maybe the clubs couldnít afford to write off the season, it would have bankrupted many of them?

The PRL is run by the clubs, so itís their decision? Only they know the full impact financially?

The RFU has agreement with PRL over release of players, are the players actually away any longer than they would be during international window?

We know the RFU are in financial troubles, do they really have an option? Losing the tv monies from 6 nations and autumn internationals? Let alone the crowds? The other games they host, the concerts? What income have they actually had?

Again the Lions gives the home unions and then PRL through RFU lots of monies.... I would think pushing start of 21/22 season back a month, so players do get a proper rest!

So fa different view is, itís in best interests of the players, cause without all the the clubs will suffer, RFU will suffer and the pro game will stutter big time?

Way I look at it, is itís not by a long way ideal for the players, but if it is what needs to be done to ensure the games/clubs financial survival then so be it, covid isnít the fault of anyone in rugby and like lots of businesses as it is) hard decisions have to be made

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Duckonstilts (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 10:16

Its all well and good planning for these things but all it takes in an outbreak in a club or camp and its all back on hold. Hopefully though the testing will help.

Imo this combined competition is an interesting idea, just badly timed.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Jamie_86 (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 10:22

Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
As I see it the clubs will lose their International players from late October till the start of the European Cup. The 'stars' will then have a full schedule all the way until June at which time some could be off to ZA for a Lions tour ( behind closed doors ) followed by pre-season training into the 21/22 campaign. Were it not for the fact that the RFU is, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt, then the spectre of central contracts would surely have raised it head again.
Imho we should have written off all 19/20competitions and started again afresh in September. I understand the financial implications but for the good of the game, the welfare of the players and the safety of the supporters, that is how it should be. Judging from what I have seen of football, cricket, golf and F1 without spectators, I really cannot get too excited about the resumption of the 19/20 season as we, as fans, will not be part of it.

I don't see how you can say you understand the financial implications and suggest the season be cancelled (therefore forfeiting the BT money) all in the same sentence.

If you do understand the financial implications (i.e. potential oblivion) then you also have to understand why the season is not written off.

I'm not sure how it's good for the game if 4 or 5 of the professional clubs go bust.



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Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Aberavon Wizard (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 10:57

One of the main reasons why the game is in trouble is that it is not as popular as it thinks it is. Clubs have been over spending on players for far too long, a situation exacerbated by wealthy owners. Whole game needs a rethink.

Of course the TV money is important but it was my understanding that BT had been very good on this issue.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint.Kenneth (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 14:47

Aberavon, I couldn't agree more. Why do rugby players believe that they deserve the wages that they do, especially when there isn't the money in the game to support that? If the salary cap was paying for 50 players in a squad, rather than 35 or so now, then a lot of the issues regarding fixture congestion would be eased as players could be rotated and rested.

As an example from the football world, the father of Liverpool player Jamie Carragher, was a successful and decent footballer, who gave up playing professional football, because he could earn more money as a builder. If wages in rugby were reduced, then the players have the choice of whether they want that career of another more lucrative one. Of course the top players will ask for the multiple hundred thousand pound deals if the clubs are daft enough to pay that kind of money, but when the foundations of the sport are so flimsy, the desire to try and match the wages of their footballer counterparts is actually damaging their own sport.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 15:28

Quote:
Saint.Kenneth
Aberavon, I couldn't agree more. Why do rugby players believe that they deserve the wages that they do, especially when there isn't the money in the game to support that? If the salary cap was paying for 50 players in a squad, rather than 35 or so now, then a lot of the issues regarding fixture congestion would be eased as players could be rotated and rested.
As an example from the football world, the father of Liverpool player Jamie Carragher, was a successful and decent footballer, who gave up playing professional football, because he could earn more money as a builder. If wages in rugby were reduced, then the players have the choice of whether they want that career of another more lucrative one. Of course the top players will ask for the multiple hundred thousand pound deals if the clubs are daft enough to pay that kind of money, but when the foundations of the sport are so flimsy, the desire to try and match the wages of their footballer counterparts is actually damaging their own sport.

Sadly it is the club game in France, England and Japan causing the unsustainable wage hyper-inflation.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 18:04

Quote:
Aberavon Wizard
One of the main reasons why the game is in trouble is that it is not as popular as it thinks it is. Clubs have been over spending on players for far too long, a situation exacerbated by wealthy owners. Whole game needs a rethink.
Of course the TV money is important but it was my understanding that BT had been very good on this issue.

I agree and throughout the whole Sarries debacle, I have been saying, that RFU, PRL, Player Union all need to sit down and work out whatís best for the game long term, as so many clubs struggling prior to covid situation.

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

Covid May have forced their hand and will help in the long term, salary cap dropped, 1 less marquee player is it???

But measures taken now, are to hopefully see the clubs through this period....

Hopefully theyíll tKe the bull by the horns and carry on reflecting and changing smiling smiley

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Santiago (IP Logged)
Date: 28 July, 2020 22:29

[quote Neil-H][quote Aberavon Wizard]

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

[/quote]

So are agents parasites or do they have a valuable role?

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 07:59

If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 08:48

Quote:
ajack
If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

Itís finding the balance?

The rich clubs need the other clubs aswell.

Hopefully they will be able to pay the players a reasonable wage, then the internationals get the top up playing international rugby and keep the rule about not being selected if you are playing abroad,

Then the top players will be receiving As much if not a bit more than they would if they go elsewhere and keep their international aspirations alive.

By having the cap we keep a competitive league, the last 2 seasons have shown how important this is and as a fans, I loved it, how many points between virtually the whole league? Take the cheats out of the equation? Nearly every club involved in some sort of fight, whether top 2, top 4, European or relegation... less dead rubbers matches and more excitement and better for attracting tv viewers imho?

Who wants a football league where the money dictates if you can compete or not?

Also, with France changing their rules, they canít have so many foreign players? Japan only has so many teams and only so many positions available, I am not sure if they have restrictions on foreigners?

So the potential for players to go elsewhere has reduced

Itís why As mentioned above when Sarries scandal broke, I said all parties need3d to get together and review and change where needed, take the opportunity and make something good come from it

Now with Covid, they need to do this more so, they taken the first step, just shame they didnít talk to Players Union though!

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Neil-H (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 08:55

[quote Santiago][quote Neil-H][quote Aberavon Wizard]

Players wages and their agents have out stripped the growth of the game, squad size shrinking to pay players and compete at premiership level!, itís a joke.

[/quote]

So are agents parasites or do they have a valuable role?[/quote]

When the game turned professional, my ex brother in law became Adidas Rugby Rep for the world, he did the clubs and player deals (git went on 3 Lions tours as part of the touring party!)

He didnít have a very high opinion of Agents, who he said were just totally unrealistic and try to screw every last penny they could from you, in the disguise of itís in the players interest!

Ok this was sometime ago, but doubt much has changed, as they been around for much longer.

Iíd say they not needed in the game, the drive wages up and then some for their %, I think players have a good idea of their worth?

Maybe the Players Union should of they donít have a contract legal side, that can give advice to players if needed? Guidelines etc?

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Aberavon Wizard (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 09:03

I want to see competitive rugby between evenly matched teams. Personally, whilst I enjoy seeing some superstars from far off climes playing in the Prem, at the end of the day I don't NEED to have my team sprinkled with overseas stars if it compromises the structure of the game.

Would I still watch Saints if we had not signed Spencer, Picamoles and Biggar ? Yes of course, because they are my team and represent my home town. Did I enjoy my rugby more in the past - probably because the matchday 'experience' has slowly but inexorably changed and thank heavens for Saints and Gloucester who have resisted most of the PR excesses that occur at other clubs. Do I fear for the professional game in England - absolutely as reckless owners allied to unsustainable buslness models have warped the financial structure allied by a hapless and incompetent RFU !

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint Maul (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 10:42

Quote:
ajack
If you allow clubs to spend what they want, many will go bust and the ones at the top will only be the ones with wealthy backers willing to write off large amounts of money. If you only allow teams to pay what the bottom clubs can afford the top players will go abroad, standards will drop and rugby will become a less attractive proposition to players, supports and TV companies and their money.
The circle that always needs squaring.

I love the club game and supported Saints pre-professionalism. But if the club game in a couple of countries is bankrupting and undermining the game internationally and this continues; then I'd accept a move an Ireland type model of central contracts and regions run and owned by the Union.

I look at how much the England cricket team has improved since moving to central contracts. We had a team that from the mid 80s to 2000 struggled to bowl out team and often experienced batting collapses. Since central contracts England has gone back to winning the Ashes, got to number 1 in the world at one point and won the World Cup. It's a sustainable, successful improved model from when bowlers were flogged by their county and then expected to rip into the best batsmen in the world.

Careful player management of players has been the key to England. Anderson is 38 tomorrow and Broad 34. Broad just got 10 wickets to help beat the Windies. Both are still able to deliver at the highest level. Broad made the point the ECB retired him from limited overs cricket in 2016 to aid his test longevity.

If the circle can't be squared then it may be necessary to break the circle (club-based rugby) and build a square (central contracts). No doubt an unpopular view but self-glorifying club owners like Wray and Boudjellal are bankrupting game. IMHO

Re: Money, Money, Money!
Posted by: Saint Tim (IP Logged)
Date: 29 July, 2020 10:54

It might be good for England cricket but central contracts has crucified the county game.

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