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Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Brackleysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 18:21


Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 19:06

Young guy bristles with indication that someone would raise concerns over losing streak

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: SuffolkSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 19:08

He didnít bristle at that - he bristled at the suggestion that the players are not trying and donít care.

Quite justified - some of the@#$%&written in here and else where has been a absolute joke. Itís like a football forum

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: twsaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 19:33

Quote:
SuffolkSaint
He didnít bristle at that - he bristled at the suggestion that the players are not trying and donít care.
Quite justified - some of the@#$%&written in here and else where has been a absolute joke. Itís like a football forum


Absolutely right Suffolk. However they'll all come on now and tell us we're wrong.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: andysaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 19:56

A players desire or effort should never be questioned. Considering what their bodies go through and that itís nigh on impossible to play this game without the effort and desire needed it is an insult and Lewis is right there.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: TringSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 20:24

Ok, if they are putting in 100% then show us, as the pictures of players standing still, hands on hips 10m out from our try line defending a rolling maul donít lie.

Lewis, Iím sure, puts 100% in, but I fear that there are plenty of others who are operating around the 80% mark.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Helmet and sack (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 20:28

It surprises me how reticent people can be to allow people their opinions on a message board which is about the voicing of opinions. Whether people think players are trying it not, it's up to them to say it. Austin Healey, among others, have had their say. Why not fans on here? Theres obviously a reason people think there's a lack of effort, whether it is true or not. Some people just love to follow and be happy. Others enjoy being critical. I'm afraid you've just got to suck it up; the players have to too.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: SuffolkSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:05

Quote:
Helmet and sack
It surprises me how reticent people can be to allow people their opinions on a message board which is about the voicing of opinions. Whether people think players are trying it not, it's up to them to say it. Austin Healey, among others, have had their say. Why not fans on here? Theres obviously a reason people think there's a lack of effort, whether it is true or not. Some people just love to follow and be happy. Others enjoy being critical. I'm afraid you've just got to suck it up; the players have to too.

The point is, its ignorant and wrong! Opinions are fine, like @#$%&, everyone has one, but saying someone isn't trying or doesn't care is a personal slur on someone like Lewis who puts his body on the line week in week out for your pleasure. Would you stand in front of any single one of these lads and tell them face to face you don't think they care or that they're not trying? So why do it hiding behind a key board like a coward. And if you think you would do it face to face, then don't just say it - do it. They're all accessible, you know where they are Monday to Friday, get down there and back it up! I don't see a queue at the gates !

The fact is form and confidence are low and slagging everyone off with personal slurs doesn't help get out of that hole, it just adds to the sense of pressure - its counter productive. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Helmet and sack (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:19

I'm not sure you can be sure about anything. To say it's wrong is just your opinion. For what it's worth, your opinion doesn't really mean much to me. I enjoy reading it as that's the point of this board. People have formed an opinion on the efforts of the players. They have expressed it in the best place to do so. Personally, I'm not sure either way. It's really not ignorant of them to suggest players aren't trying. Perhaps some of them aren't? Lewis is hardly likely to start slagging his team mates off. Just don't get so annoyed about people expressing themselves if it doesn't fit your narrative.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: SuffolkSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:21

Quote:
Helmet and sack
I'm not sure you can be sure about anything. To say it's wrong is just your opinion. For what it's worth, your opinion doesn't really mean much to me. I enjoy reading it as that's the point of this board. People have formed an opinion on the efforts of the players. They have expressed it in the best place to do so. Personally, I'm not sure either way. It's really not ignorant of them to suggest players aren't trying. Perhaps some of them aren't? Lewis is hardly likely to start slagging his team mates off. Just don't get so annoyed about people expressing themselves if it doesn't fit your narrative.

helmet and sack....very apt - don't take it personally, just my opinion

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Helmet and sack (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:22

I expected that kind of response.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: TimperleySaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:28

I think it is more complex and nuanced. I am 100% sure the players were absolutely gassed on Sunday and effort was 100%.

However we viewers/supporters/fans saw a defensive line slow to move up, players jogging round the pitch, a lack of 'intensity' compares to the opposition.

Which leads us back to the discussed point of it being a mental thing rather than a physical.

But why? I agree with other commentators that something seems to have happened behind the scenes.

I don't think our team is poor. I think our forwards are good, providing we play as per game plan. Our scrum earlier in the season held its own (will never win penalties), our forwards carried off quick ball and made ground and cleared out rucks quickly. Our line out has been a bit shaky all season.

Our backs can be excellent but are struggling with a game plan not working.

How to turn is around? Million dollar question.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Helmet and sack (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 21:37

Quote:
TimperleySaint
I think it is more complex and nuanced. I am 100% sure the players were absolutely gassed on Sunday and effort was 100%.
However we viewers/supporters/fans saw a defensive line slow to move up, players jogging round the pitch, a lack of 'intensity' compares to the opposition.

Which leads us back to the discussed point of it being a mental thing rather than a physical.

But why? I agree with other commentators that something seems to have happened behind the scenes.

I don't think our team is poor. I think our forwards are good, providing we play as per game plan. Our scrum earlier in the season held its own (will never win penalties), our forwards carried off quick ball and made ground and cleared out rucks quickly. Our line out has been a bit shaky all season.

Our backs can be excellent but are struggling with a game plan not working.

How to turn is around? Million dollar question.

It would certainly make more sense for it to be less of an effort issue as something else. Mentally subdued for a whole host of potential reasons. Body language is an interesting thing. I'm sure a sports psych could add value to that lead. When we've been battering down the door and come away with nothing (one dimensional play i.m.o) that must be excruciatingly deflating.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: TringSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 15 September, 2020 22:08

Not sure I buy into the Ďsomething in the back room is not goodí message. These are professional rugby players and they should be of a sufficient calibre to enable them to perform whatever issues are going on in the background.

I donít always agree with my management and they seem to be more of a sales prevention team most of the time, but they never stop me from doing what I need to do (even though I may be cheesed off with them!).

Equally, if they feel that the coaching and tactics are carp then the senior players need to stand up and make their views known.

If there are issues behind the scenes then players like Dan, Lewis, Courts, Franks etc need to step up and lead the youngsters in the right direction.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Deesaint (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 07:21

Always taught that the first steps to overcoming a problem is to acknowledge that it is there

You would expect nothing less from a young guy defending his team mates, whatís the alternative criticising other players

I just think it was very poor for saints marketing to allow it to be published , saying basically that nothing is wrong and the team are full on in every game against what supporters are watching every game doesnít gel

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 08:36

I guess it comes down to what you call not putting the effort in? I doubt many think that every game is played at test match intensity and everyone comes off unable to give any more, however in a competition where many matches are won by a couple of percent difference a slight drop off can give the impression of "not trying".

The example given of letting players score under the posts once they have crossed the line is a good one. Putting in effort to make the kick harder might only result in one kick in four being missed and is unlikely to effect the result, however doing all those little things over and over all game is exactly what separates winning teams from losing teams. It is hard to do but you can always put in more effort however low confidence is.

I certainly would not say Saints are not trying at the minute but they look like a beaten side most of the time. I would love someone to come out and say what is really wrong rather than just confidence is low all the time. I doubt many people really believe that.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Saint Matt (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 08:51

Quote:
Deesaint
...saying basically that nothing is wrong and the team are full on in every game against what supporters are watching every game doesnít gel

I don't think he's saying nothing is wrong, I think he's gone about as far as he can without criticising individuals, which as you rightly say, would be really poor.
"We're a team that's low on confidence..."
"..walk into the changing room post-game it's not a happy place to be"
"We're trying a bit too hard"
"We're lacking a little bit of composure and smarts about us"

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Longers (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 09:20

What is said in public, is one thing.

What is said behind closed doors, is another.

On the argument of accusations that people are not giving 100%, again, it is very simple. Take the data from the early games, and compare to the last few. That will tell us loud and clear, what the real situation is.

As for effort. Hard work does not lead to success. Ask anyone who came second. I think we need to slow down a bit (!) and think about what we're doing.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: Scooby Saint COYS (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 09:41

As an aside- I thought it was interesting that Lewis made a comment that "In training, we're pushing ourselves and demanding standards more than ever and it's not a comfortable place to be.Ē

By way of contrast, Steve Diamond was recently quoted as saying that ďthe training in the week has gone to zero, so the amount of stress their bodies are taking is less than it normally is." [www.google.co.uk]

Clearly, this also relates to Saints and Sale having had different selection approaches (and Saleís own recent form has been variable). But nevertheless, interesting to get the sense of quite different approaches to training going on.

Re: Lewis Ludlam opinion!
Posted by: LeicesterSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 16 September, 2020 10:15

I think the issue is a conflation of effort and intensity. I have absolutely no doubt that the players are putting in 100% effort in for both games and training. However intensity is down to many factors - mainly psychological. The energy saps of being in the red zone for ages and not scoring, getting penalised in promising situations, giving away intercepts and turnovers etc are a big problem. Likewise confidence both in themselves but also in the game plan and structure. For example - there are several players who stand out defensively as they go out hunting and putting pressure on (usually 10's) - think Farrell, Faf etc. However they can only do that with confidence in the structure and their teammates - otherwise you end up looking pretty stupid a lot of the time or just wasting effort. Likewise kick-chases, chargedowns, defensive alignment etc.

I wouldn't expect that players come on here but I would hope that some posters think about how comments are phrased along those lines. Without getting into the wider discussion around cancel culture - yes everyone has the right to an opinion and a right to express it and it is understandable that right now there is a lot of negative sentiment. It's been mentioned a few times before but I think a good acid test is whether you would say it in person (in the same way). There's a big difference between saying the team or x,y z player looks tired or isn't playing to their full potential and saying they're rubbish, not trying or should be dropped/sacked/hung drawn and quartered.

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