CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Borthwick -fan regret
By PG Tips
June 11 2022
This season’s Premiership Semi Finals pair two derby rivals and promise two clashes of contrasting styles. The host clubs, Saracens and Leicester would appear to be favourites, pragmatism trumping flair, but as last year’s matches showed, surprise always lurks nearby in knock-out rugby. Earlier rounds suggest a close match in Barnet, while Leicester could be comfortable victors in the second semi. Will we see a repeat of last year’s try fest, or will they be tense tussles? And who will emerge victorious?
The StoneX semi could be billed the “Clash of the Champions”, last year’s entertaining winners Harlequins at the decade’s most successful (and most criticised) Premiership club Saracens. Since returning to the Premiership Saracens have shown all the structure and ruthlessness of former glories. Their collective urge to redeem themselves after Championship exile is reinforced by individual agendas, especially up front where Mako Vunipola and Jamie George have had to strive to win back approval from Eddie Jones. They, along with Maro Itoje and Billy Vunipola are as dangerous ball in hand as they are at set piece and breakdown. Always keen to inject new energy into their squad they have developed new recruit McFarland, Academy product Segun and loan return Lozowski into potent threats. The heartbeat of their team and pulling the strings, is still Owen Farrell also with a personal agenda to prove himself a worthy leader of England for Australia the 6 Nations and the World Cup.
As Bristol discovered last year, a well drilled game plan and home advantage may not be enough against Harlequins, 4th seed this year as they were last. The obvious fulcrum of their attacking flair is the Dombrandt-Care-Smith axis, but that draws energy and support from a solid front 5, the midfield oomph of Esterhuizen and the strike power of Marchant, Northmoor and Lynagh. It should be a story of stifling defence and brutal charges smothering multi-coloured flair, but a surprise cannot be ruled out – after last year’s Quins showing that would be no shock.
Welford Road hosts one of the oldest (and most bitterly contested) derbies in English rugby. Some fans will dredge up past wrongs to stoke the mood of confrontation – Rob Hawkins arm broken in an unprovoked assault; Saints’ Captain Dylan Hartley sent off in the Final nearly 10 years ago. The match itself needs neither memory nor mythology to be an exciting prospect. Leicester have looked on course for a Twickenham finale since the early rounds, while saints, hoping to give Chris Boyd a victorious send off to retirement at home in New Zealand, have shown they can play sublime attacking rugby given half a chance. Leicester will rely on the power of Genge, Cole, Chessum and Wiese among others to put them on the front foot, guided by the territorial kicking of Ford. Direct running centres Porter and Moroni are likely to continue the drive deep into opposition territory, but as the shape of the game loosens, expect Tigers to conjure space for Harry Potter, Chris Ashton or Freddie Steward.
If Saints don’t expect dominance in the Tigers’ lair, they should put up very stiff resistance. Coles and Ratuniyarawa will aim to mess up the hosts’ lineout, with Lawes, Ludlam and Augustus pouncing on errors and punching midfield holes. Dan Biggar at fly half plays for Saints with a freedom seldom attempted for Wales: Hutchinson, Procter and Freeman will need no second invitation if he chooses to open things up.
For the 7th season in a row, Bath have no interest in these playoffs. There are though a reminder of what might have been. Jack walker has been a revelation for harlequins- one of their players of the season. Leicester can choose from two former Bath fly halves, both of whom left the Rec in unhappy circumstances. Perhaps the biggest regret for fans though is that former captain Steve Borthwick, still resident near Bath, is the DOR who has led Tigers to a redemption that currently seems a distant dream on the banks of the Avon.
Back to the contests. Who will win? Neutrals who love running rugby may hope for two away triumphs; purists may well counter that a clash of styles would provide more nuance to relish. I cannot see beyond two home wins. That would set up a final with two close friends and rivals directing matters from fly half. There, the bookies would back Farrell to prevail, as he so often does. Saracens will have to outwit Ford (and Borthwick) to make that happen.
CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:51
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:20:15:58:46 by P G Tips.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:20:15:58:46 by P G Tips.
Semis
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:27
Some very favourable reffing for sarries.
Loz at 100 mph, no control, no arm, head on head, and Luke P was just going to give a scrum. It was 100% a red, and Bath had had at least 4 reds against for less, yet it ends up a yellow.
Been a couple of others that could have been more than the 3 yellows, and another couple of incidents that should have been penalties or yellows.
Do like the bell though from the announcer.
No love lost between the sides.
Loz at 100 mph, no control, no arm, head on head, and Luke P was just going to give a scrum. It was 100% a red, and Bath had had at least 4 reds against for less, yet it ends up a yellow.
Been a couple of others that could have been more than the 3 yellows, and another couple of incidents that should have been penalties or yellows.
Do like the bell though from the announcer.
No love lost between the sides.
Re: Semis
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:34
Sarries very strong, and will win at TW1.
Re: Semis
Posted by: BathIron (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:39
Quality shifts from Earls and Isiekwe
CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 09:17
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Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 09:52
Quote:For the 7th season in a row, Bath have no interest in these playoffs. There are though a reminder of what might have been.
Slight point of order, we were in the playoffs in 2019-20!!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 10:00
Quote:hastaQuote:For the 7th season in a row, Bath have no interest in these playoffs. There are though a reminder of what might have been.
Slight point of order, we were in the playoffs in 2019-20!!
hmm yes that seems not to register, lost to Quins right?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 10:18
hasta
Of course we were - my mistake. Got there by the skin of our teeth when sale had to forfeit a match.
Lost actually to Exeter.
PG
Of course we were - my mistake. Got there by the skin of our teeth when sale had to forfeit a match.
Lost actually to Exeter.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 10:22
Now edited for accuracy.
PG
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 13:13
Quote:P G Tips
hasta
Of course we were - my mistake. Got there by the skin of our teeth when sale had to forfeit a match.
Lost actually to Exeter.
PG
Didn't just lose, we were never in the game
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 07/06/2022 17:37
Excellent preview PG 
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:36
London derby was quite a game, can the East Midlands match that?
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:15:47:55 by P G Tips.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:15:47:55 by P G Tips.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 15:53
I have merged this with the Semis thread - for convenience.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:15:58:59 by P G Tips.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:15:58:59 by P G Tips.
Re: Semis
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 16:05
Quote:Dorset Boy
Some very favourable reffing for sarries.
Loz at 100 mph, no control, no arm, head on head, .
I like Luke Pearce as a ref and though he handled a difficult game well- but I tend to agree DB. Lozowski's arms were flailing everywhere and he was described as "out of control."
He was a bit lucky I think.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 16:08
I like Luke Pearce but how that tackle by Alex L was not a red card is beyond me given what has been given all season, running full tilt head on head, In fact all 3 yellow cards Pearce was reluctant to card any of them and it was only Tempest as TMO intervening that got yellows.
Sarries are brilliant at the dark arts of the game whether that is slowing opposition ruck ball by hands or accidentally falling on the wrong side and then pushing the offside line beyond the realms of possibility and loitering around in offside positions or blocking chasers.
All season Pearce has been really hot on these things but today when Quins needed him to be hot he wasn’t. Matson on will be quietly fuming.
Hats off to Sarries - personally not my cup of tea but hard to argue with.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:17:03:50 by Ali1969.
Sarries are brilliant at the dark arts of the game whether that is slowing opposition ruck ball by hands or accidentally falling on the wrong side and then pushing the offside line beyond the realms of possibility and loitering around in offside positions or blocking chasers.
All season Pearce has been really hot on these things but today when Quins needed him to be hot he wasn’t. Matson on will be quietly fuming.
Hats off to Sarries - personally not my cup of tea but hard to argue with.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:17:03:50 by Ali1969.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 16:52
That game was sarries in a nutshell.
Soon much to admire about them....passion, aggression, physicality, togetherness, streetwise (all things we lack)
Yet so easy to dislike them!
Tompkins sums them up for me- extracts every ounce of his ability every game, tops the charts on 'no talent required' elements of rugby....Yet spoils it by over celebrating, slaps on the head of opponents after en error etc. Invariably it sparks a dust up for which he gets no punishment.
Agree with above comments, Pearce is excellent but if you fly at full tilt , upright, and smash someones head which part of the protocols for a red isn't that ticking? we have had 5 or more reds for similar incidents over the last 18 months I would say.
Earl and isiekwe stand out for me. Money is on sarries for the final
Soon much to admire about them....passion, aggression, physicality, togetherness, streetwise (all things we lack)
Yet so easy to dislike them!
Tompkins sums them up for me- extracts every ounce of his ability every game, tops the charts on 'no talent required' elements of rugby....Yet spoils it by over celebrating, slaps on the head of opponents after en error etc. Invariably it sparks a dust up for which he gets no punishment.
Agree with above comments, Pearce is excellent but if you fly at full tilt , upright, and smash someones head which part of the protocols for a red isn't that ticking? we have had 5 or more reds for similar incidents over the last 18 months I would say.
Earl and isiekwe stand out for me. Money is on sarries for the final
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 17:04
Agree charlie.
Sarries are very good at sneakily pushing the laws to breaking point and at a lot of things which are not against the laws, but very much against the spirit. Their provocative "inya face" celebrations are, IMHO, deliberate ploys to spark a dustup and win penalties.
PG
Sarries are very good at sneakily pushing the laws to breaking point and at a lot of things which are not against the laws, but very much against the spirit. Their provocative "inya face" celebrations are, IMHO, deliberate ploys to spark a dustup and win penalties.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 17:31
There was a Sarries defensive 5m scrum where Billy was scragged as he picked up. At the ruck, Luke P said "hands away EVERYONE", but he then let Billy hold on and scure possession ,when if he had let go, Quins were over him and would have pushed the ball back with their feet.
Refs too often say hands away and then still let the tackled player play the ball with their hands.
Refs too often say hands away and then still let the tackled player play the ball with their hands.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 17:52
If there really was such a thing as a ‘no richardheads’ policy in rugby, Sarries would seriously struggle to raise a team.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Malco (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 18:34
At the end of the day, we might think we've had a terrible season but Harlequins and Northampton have won the same number of trophies we have.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 18:35
Saints undone by their own first half nerves and errors, a Ford masterclass and (it has to be said) a few dodgy decisions from Matthew Carley.
PG
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: dr.bath1865 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 18:57
Without wanting to pick on a player, and every player has a shocker at some point in their careers, Saints beaten by their own left winger. A completely different game if they go 7/14 points up in the first half. Tigers/Ford would’ve had to do more than kick (which Ford did brilliantly).
Can’t see anything other than a clinical Sarries victory next weekend, although I hope Tigers prove me wrong.
Can’t see anything other than a clinical Sarries victory next weekend, although I hope Tigers prove me wrong.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 19:12
Win or lose at the cabbage patch Tigers have exceeded my expectations by some distance, 2 semi finals, won one and lost one and top of the heap. Sarries will start favourites, but we can beat them.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 19:33
You can tb - and good luck!
PG
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shendy (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 20:18
Quote:dr.bath1865
Without wanting to pick on a player, and every player has a shocker at some point in their careers, Saints beaten by their own left winger. A completely different game if they go 7/14 points up in the first half. Tigers/Ford would’ve had to do more than kick (which Ford did brilliantly).
Can’t see anything other than a clinical Sarries victory next weekend, although I hope Tigers prove me wrong.
A real shame Furbank was injured in training - he'd have been at FB and Freeman on the wing instead of Skosan.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: D s & t dad (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 21:09
So the two clubs that cheated with the salary cap get to the final, a sad day for rugby in my opinion.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 22:11
Quote:D s & t dad
So the two clubs that cheated with the salary cap get to the final, a sad day for rugby in my opinion.
Tigers didn't 'cheat', they exceeded the cap by an amount below the ‘Overrun’ limit above which a formal charge may be brought for an alleged breach of the regulations. The same as Wasps did a few years ago:
[www.rugbypass.com]
Its only a breach of the cap (and therefore cheating) if you exceed the overrun.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: annie blackthorn (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 22:14
What a funny comment.
p.s. Sending up all sorts of requests to whoever decides these things that Leicester win.
p.s. becausemy memory fails me what was the name of that Sarries player (think he was a Saffa) who regularly 'played dirty', was downright dangerous at times, small dark bloke. Still can see him at the Rec - nasty little bloke.
p.s. Sending up all sorts of requests to whoever decides these things that Leicester win.
p.s. becausemy memory fails me what was the name of that Sarries player (think he was a Saffa) who regularly 'played dirty', was downright dangerous at times, small dark bloke. Still can see him at the Rec - nasty little bloke.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: TomReagan (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 22:26
Quote:Given our alleged creative accounting there are shades of that Doyle Lonnegan quote in The Sting: ' What was I supposed to do. Call him for cheating better than me?!'.D s & t dad
So the two clubs that cheated with the salary cap get to the final, a sad day for rugby in my opinion.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:11:22:27:33 by TomReagan.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 11/06/2022 22:49
Quote:BathMatt53
Tigers didn't 'cheat', they exceeded the cap by an amount below the ‘Overrun’ limit above which a formal charge may be brought for an alleged breach of the regulations.
Sorry BM but that's absolute B*llocks. They used a mechanism hidden from and not declared to the SCM to pay their players. That the SCM knew about it at all is likely down to a disgruntled former employee who was quickly paid up and off by Tigers when news of this started to come out. I wonder what other ruses he would have told about had he not been? That it only fell into overrun territory doesn't mean it wasn't cheating.
As a Sarries supporter I am in no position to throw stones from my glass house but it annoys me what a free ride they've been given.
Along with Sarries and Bath (named as the two clubs breaking the cap back in 2015/16?) Tigers were the only other club who wouldn't make a statement that they hadn't been breaching the cap when all other 9 clubs did. They have been cheating ever since then and both Pinchen and likely Borthwick failed in their duty to disclose what was being done.
In addition to that they backed sanctions against Sarries and benefitted to the tune of about £400K (which conveniently pays the fine for their cheating over the past 5/6 seasons) all whilst knowing they were cheating the cap.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 12/06/2022 04:17
I thought the refs on both games were clearly desperate not to give red cards and pretty reluctant to give yellows.
Salaries clearly the better side but Saints must be wondering how on earth they managed to lose that game. If the Tigs play like that next week, Salaries will win by a country mile.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Salaries clearly the better side but Saints must be wondering how on earth they managed to lose that game. If the Tigs play like that next week, Salaries will win by a country mile.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 12/06/2022 09:12
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:BathMatt53
Tigers didn't 'cheat', they exceeded the cap by an amount below the ‘Overrun’ limit above which a formal charge may be brought for an alleged breach of the regulations.
Sorry BM but that's absolute B*llocks. They used a mechanism hidden from and not declared to the SCM to pay their players. That the SCM knew about it at all is likely down to a disgruntled former employee who was quickly paid up and off by Tigers when news of this started to come out. I wonder what other ruses he would have told about had he not been? That it only fell into overrun territory doesn't mean it wasn't cheating.
Hope you have a good lawyer making statements like that as if you have access to facts, rather than making it up as you go along.
As a Sarries supporter I am in no position to throw stones from my glass house but it annoys me what a free ride they've been given.
Along with Sarries and Bath (named as the two clubs breaking the cap back in 2015/16?) Tigers were the only other club who wouldn't make a statement that they hadn't been breaching the cap when all other 9 clubs did. They have been cheating ever since then and both Pinchen and likely Borthwick failed in their duty to disclose what was being done.
In addition to that they backed sanctions against Sarries and benefitted to the tune of about £400K (which conveniently pays the fine for their cheating over the past 5/6 seasons) all whilst knowing they were cheating the cap.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/06/2022 09:52
Quote:Malco
At the end of the day, we might think we've had a terrible season
We have, we came bottom.
Quote:Malco
but Harlequins and Northampton have won the same number of trophies we have.
Oh that's alright then! As a supporter I would preferred to have won 15 matches and have enjoyed the season and no trophy than 5 matches and no trophy and been sad for most of it.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/06/2022 09:56
Quote:OldMarovian
Sorry BM but that's absolute B*llocks.
No need to apologise OM, its your opinion but just one that I don't happen to agree with. The Sarries and Tigers (and Wasps) cases are like chalk and cheese and the latter 2 fell within the regulations whist the former did not. As a result I didn't care about the Tigers and Wasps cases and don't think that they got any material advantage, where as Sarries did. Tigers complied fully with the investigation and Sarries took a relegation rather than actuall open their books for furhter audit.
Still, thats all old news now. Well done to Sarries and Tigers for getting to the final.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 12/06/2022 13:19
They are 100% different cases BM and I am in no ways minimising what Sarries did.
Wasps and Quins had declared overspends. Obvious mistakes in balancing the cap fully disclosed to the SCM and so rightfully handled under the discretionary overspend part of the SC.
Tigers hid payments off books. That they landed in the same band (assuming that's all there was) is completely different IMO although I appreciate they have to be punished the same.
Tigerburine I was pretty careful with what I wrote but if you appreciate how the Libel laws work in this country I'd love Tigers proving that they didn't cheat, hide it (both of those are records of fact) and that Cohen wasn't paid off to stop leaking information (it would be very interesting having Pinchen and Cohen on the stand under oath) I'd rather I wasn't the other party though!
Wasps and Quins had declared overspends. Obvious mistakes in balancing the cap fully disclosed to the SCM and so rightfully handled under the discretionary overspend part of the SC.
Tigers hid payments off books. That they landed in the same band (assuming that's all there was) is completely different IMO although I appreciate they have to be punished the same.
Tigerburine I was pretty careful with what I wrote but if you appreciate how the Libel laws work in this country I'd love Tigers proving that they didn't cheat, hide it (both of those are records of fact) and that Cohen wasn't paid off to stop leaking information (it would be very interesting having Pinchen and Cohen on the stand under oath) I'd rather I wasn't the other party though!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Ali1969 (IP Logged)
Date: 13/06/2022 10:21
Quote:OldMarovian
They are 100% different cases BM and I am in no ways minimising what Sarries did.
Wasps and Quins had declared overspends. Obvious mistakes in balancing the cap fully disclosed to the SCM and so rightfully handled under the discretionary overspend part of the SC.
Tigers hid payments off books. That they landed in the same band (assuming that's all there was) is completely different IMO although I appreciate they have to be punished the same.
Tigerburine I was pretty careful with what I wrote but if you appreciate how the Libel laws work in this country I'd love Tigers proving that they didn't cheat, hide it (both of those are records of fact) and that Cohen wasn't paid off to stop leaking information (it would be very interesting having Pinchen and Cohen on the stand under oath) I'd rather I wasn't the other party though!
Without fear of opening old wounds, I agree OM Tigers were lucky, personally speaking the thing which gripes me more about Sarries was their refusal to allow a forensic investigation of their accounts - it is one thing to cheat but it is another to act in a way which makes you look so arrogant and does not give the impression of acceptance or humbleness more “Damn” we have been caught out, we will have to be more astute next time. It does make you wonder just how serious the breaches were.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 13/06/2022 16:43
Tigers were stupid, Sarries were cynical, there's a world of difference, doesn't matter how big your brush or what colour paint you use, what Saracens did over a period of years was deemed worse than anything anyone else did, that is why they were relegated to the Championship. Your PR offensive is futile, caught with your pants down and duly dealt with.
Time to move on, it's almost as daft as mentioning Wasps and the "uncontested scrums or bloodgate or even boot money in the amateur days" lol.
Time to move on, it's almost as daft as mentioning Wasps and the "uncontested scrums or bloodgate or even boot money in the amateur days" lol.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 13/06/2022 22:52
Yes, but Sarries were punished and Tigers weren't. At all. I have some sympathy with OM on this (although, you know, not that much).
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 08:42
What happened to the argument that Leicester were a publicly listed company and therefore you could see if they exceeded the cap?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: CoochieCoo (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 08:51
Quote:The Bear
What happened to the argument that Leicester were a publicly listed company and therefore you could see if they exceeded the cap?
The Companies Act requirement is to show total wages and numbers of employees. Directors remuneration has to be disclosed as well. There is no requirement to show players remuneration in accounts whether publicly listed or not.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:14:12:40:02 by CoochieCoo.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 12:37
Anyway back to the topic, 4 teams played in two very good games, hotly contested and the 2 winners now play in the final.
Will be interesting to see the teams selected, there are a lot of interesting head to heads all over the park, should England look again at the soon to be Sale player and ex of this parish for the 10 shirt for example?
If Danny Care is young enough to play, what about Dan Cole who's still doing it ?
Plenty for the neutral to be engaged in?
Will be interesting to see the teams selected, there are a lot of interesting head to heads all over the park, should England look again at the soon to be Sale player and ex of this parish for the 10 shirt for example?
If Danny Care is young enough to play, what about Dan Cole who's still doing it ?
Plenty for the neutral to be engaged in?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: ninjafez (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 13:00
Quote:annie blackthorn
What a funny comment.
p.s. Sending up all sorts of requests to whoever decides these things that Leicester win.
p.s. becausemy memory fails me what was the name of that Sarries player (think he was a Saffa) who regularly 'played dirty', was downright dangerous at times, small dark bloke. Still can see him at the Rec - nasty little bloke.
errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...... can you pin point a 2-4 years when he was playing or position, the only one i can remember to that description is Moses Rauluni, who was Fijian but it doesnt remind me of a liability??
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 14:52
Quote:ninjafezQuote:annie blackthorn
What a funny comment.
p.s. Sending up all sorts of requests to whoever decides these things that Leicester win.
p.s. becausemy memory fails me what was the name of that Sarries player (think he was a Saffa) who regularly 'played dirty', was downright dangerous at times, small dark bloke. Still can see him at the Rec - nasty little bloke.
errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...... can you pin point a 2-4 years when he was playing or position, the only one i can remember to that description is Moses Rauluni, who was Fijian but it doesnt remind me of a liability??
The only small forward I can think of a Sarries was Schalk Britts, wouldn’t call him nasty just super competitive.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 15:02
I reckon its Jacques Burger, but hes from Zimbabwe
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 15:57
Yes and neither player dirty
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 16:44
Mike Rhodes is the only one I can think of, he was a huge cheap shot merchant, but certainly not 'small'. Brendan Venter was only about 6ft and nasty, but not an actual Sarries player obvs. Was it a dream?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:14:16:45:57 by BathMatt53.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:14:16:45:57 by BathMatt53.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 17:22
Thanks hasta 
BM that's definitely a fair call on Rhodes. As Farrell said when he got red carded on his last game it was very fitting!
BM that's definitely a fair call on Rhodes. As Farrell said when he got red carded on his last game it was very fitting!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 17:43
Quote:woodpecker
I reckon its Jacques Burger, but hes from Zimbabwe
Or Namibia?
Agree though - I believe it is he annie is thinking of.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:14:21:42:30 by P G Tips.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: ninjafez (IP Logged)
Date: 14/06/2022 21:35
Quote:P G TipsQuote:woodpecker
I reckon its Jacques Burger, but hes from Zimbabwe
Or Nambia?
Agree though - I believe it is he annie is thinking of.
Correct, anyone who would call Jacques either SA or Zimbabwean to his face is a braver fan than I...
I'm still not sure we have hit the right person though..
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: woodpecker (IP Logged)
Date: 15/06/2022 09:53
Quote:P G TipsQuote:woodpecker
I reckon its Jacques Burger, but hes from Zimbabwe
Or Namibia?
Agree though - I believe it is he annie is thinking of.
Of course Namibia!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: annie blackthorn (IP Logged)
Date: 16/06/2022 19:34
yes, that's him. Jacques Burger. Thanks.
Brings back immediate memory of him getting away with GBH. But of course, "its only rugby" and the Ref was looking th other way. Seems a Sarries trait (I await the deluge of protests) in those days. They had several players who copied his Saffa style, even if he wasn't actually a South African. Funny how some half a minute incidents stick in the mind years later.
Brings back immediate memory of him getting away with GBH. But of course, "its only rugby" and the Ref was looking th other way. Seems a Sarries trait (I await the deluge of protests) in those days. They had several players who copied his Saffa style, even if he wasn't actually a South African. Funny how some half a minute incidents stick in the mind years later.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Widcombe boy (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 11:18
Quote:I remember seeing Burger make 3 dangerous high tackles in a first half at the Rec. Each would have been red now, I was so incensed that I had a go at Sanderson at half timeannie blackthorn
yes, that's him. Jacques Burger. Thanks.
Brings back immediate memory of him getting away with GBH. But of course, "its only rugby" and the Ref was looking th other way. Seems a Sarries trait (I await the deluge of protests) in those days. They had several players who copied his Saffa style, even if he wasn't actually a South African. Funny how some half a minute incidents stick in the mind years later.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 11:20
What was his response WB?
PG
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Bath Supporter Jack (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 12:09
My worst experience of that sort was when the Tuilagi brothers decided to repeatedly tear Bendy's head off.............was there a penalty, there certainly was not a yellow or red card.
Each time Bendy got up, shook himself down and got on with it!
Each time Bendy got up, shook himself down and got on with it!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Widcombe boy (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 12:12
I shouted at him ‘So it’s win at all costs’ He looked up but didn’t reply
Widcombe Garçon
Widcombe Garçon
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 12:57
It's tough not to look at the way Freddie Burns has performed as back-up to George Ford and as experienced head to come off the bench and shake your head at the awful way he was man-managed here.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 13:11
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
My worst experience of that sort was when the Tuilagi brothers decided to repeatedly tear Bendy's head off.............was there a penalty, there certainly was not a yellow or red card.
Each time Bendy got up, shook himself down and got on with it!
No cards BSJ, but if my memory serves correctly, there was a penalty -at the 10th incident! Bendy left the field soon after.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 13:15
The Teams:
Leicester Tigers:
15 Freddie Steward [55]
14 Chris Ashton [11]
13 Matías Moroni [35]
12 Guy Porter [44]
11 Harry Potter [40]
10 George Ford [128]
9 Richard Wigglesworth [36]
1 Ellis Genge (c) [110]
2 Julián Montoya [26]
3 Dan Cole [289]
4 Ollie Chessum [30]
5 Calum Green [90]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (vc) [58]
7 Tommy Reffell [77]
8 Jasper Wiese [44]
REPLACEMENTS
16 Charlie Clare [51]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [67]
18 Joe Heyes [100]
19 Harry Wells [155]
20 George Martin [38]
21 Ben Youngs [281]
22 Freddie Burns [102]
23 Matt Scott [46]
Saracens:
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Vincent Koch
4 Maro Itoje
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Theo McFarland
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Aled Davies
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Kapeli Pifeleti
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Alec Clarey
19 Jackson Wray
20 Andy Christie
21 Ivan van Zyl
22 Duncan Taylor
23 Alex Lozowski
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Leicester Tigers:
15 Freddie Steward [55]
14 Chris Ashton [11]
13 Matías Moroni [35]
12 Guy Porter [44]
11 Harry Potter [40]
10 George Ford [128]
9 Richard Wigglesworth [36]
1 Ellis Genge (c) [110]
2 Julián Montoya [26]
3 Dan Cole [289]
4 Ollie Chessum [30]
5 Calum Green [90]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (vc) [58]
7 Tommy Reffell [77]
8 Jasper Wiese [44]
REPLACEMENTS
16 Charlie Clare [51]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [67]
18 Joe Heyes [100]
19 Harry Wells [155]
20 George Martin [38]
21 Ben Youngs [281]
22 Freddie Burns [102]
23 Matt Scott [46]
Saracens:
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Vincent Koch
4 Maro Itoje
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Theo McFarland
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Aled Davies
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Kapeli Pifeleti
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Alec Clarey
19 Jackson Wray
20 Andy Christie
21 Ivan van Zyl
22 Duncan Taylor
23 Alex Lozowski
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 14:59
Are you Sarries travelling reserve PG? 
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 15:05
To have Duncan Taylor and Alex Lowsowski on the bench is a luxury, thru would be close to first picks for most Premiership clubs!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 16:38
Quote:All of Tigers bench are internationalsshipwrecked
To have Duncan Taylor and Alex Lowsowski on the bench is a luxury, thru would be close to first picks for most Premiership clubs!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 17:29
Quote:tigerburnie
All of Tigers bench are internationals
Really? I've never even heard of Charlie Clare, was it U18s or something certainly don't remember him getting capped. Joe Heyes isn't capped either is he?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 17/06/2022 18:19
Quote:tigerburnieQuote:All of Tigers bench are internationalsshipwrecked
To have Duncan Taylor and Alex Lowsowski on the bench is a luxury, thru would be close to first picks for most Premiership clubs!
Nailed on win then isn’t it?
Winning 10 gets the England shirt!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Mike the Taxi (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 15:32
Salaries yellow for illegal tackle - qelle surprise!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: 9215 (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 15:52
Real shame for Ford, unlikely he’ll be in a prem final again
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 15:55
Quote:I reckon Sale might just make top 4 next year, not sure about a final though9215
Real shame for Ford, unlikely he’ll be in a prem final again
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 16:01
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Salaries yellow for illegal tackle - qelle surprise!
The surprise for me is that it was not red.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 16:57
3 immediate thoughts:
Steve Borthwick has put himself in pole position for the England job.
Billy Viunipola has done his chance of a surprise recall to England a lot of good.
Bath really did not get the best out of Freddie Burns.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:18:17:31:17 by P G Tips.
Steve Borthwick has put himself in pole position for the England job.
Billy Viunipola has done his chance of a surprise recall to England a lot of good.
Bath really did not get the best out of Freddie Burns.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:18:17:31:17 by P G Tips.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 17:20
Thinking back to the comments of 'he who cannot be names' but Leicester looked like they wanted to, and knew they could, win this and when we were there we had none of this resolve.
Wish we'd had Borthwick back here rather than our 'experimental' phase but he has done a great job and would no doubt do a good job for England too...
Wish we'd had Borthwick back here rather than our 'experimental' phase but he has done a great job and would no doubt do a good job for England too...
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: warrenball (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 18:10
Well done too Tigers, always enjoyed our games at Twickenham against Tigers when we had a club capable to taking on the best and very pleased for the Young brothers and Freddy Burns. Freddy is always going to be the sort of player who can be both brilliant or dreadful, both often in the same game, so well done to Borthwick for giving him the chance and making a much better job of managing him than we did. Also praise for Sinfield who along with Borthwick has shown just how essential it is to have first rate coaches
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 18:15
Heard a comment about Sinfield that was he has given the side an identity.
Similar to comments about Shaun Edwards doing the same for Wales.
I’m hoping JPF can do the same for Bath !
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Similar to comments about Shaun Edwards doing the same for Wales.
I’m hoping JPF can do the same for Bath !
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: hasta (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 18:59
Quote:hasta
It's tough not to look at the way Freddie Burns has performed as back-up to George Ford and as experienced head to come off the bench and shake your head at the awful way he was man-managed here.
Pretty happy with this one!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 19:00
As a neutral that was a tedious game and not a good advert for the PL.
Well done to Tigers, although would have preferred Sarries as there are a few Tigers players I’d rather not see with a winners medal.
Well done to Tigers, although would have preferred Sarries as there are a few Tigers players I’d rather not see with a winners medal.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 20:09
Quote:OutsideBath
As a neutral that was a tedious game and not a good advert for the PL.
Yes I appreciated the defensive efforts and kick chasing but certainly didn't 'enjoy' the game in any way, last 2 mins aside I thought it lacked anything very exciting for the neutral.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 20:16
For me, it was out of sync with the prevailing trend -to open the game up- but I thought it compelling in its own way. the outcome was uncertain almost throughout.
Two well matched sides with carefully thought out game plans.
The downside is that this could bring in a new era of defence based rugby.
PG
Two well matched sides with carefully thought out game plans.
The downside is that this could bring in a new era of defence based rugby.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Borked Login (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 21:08
Quote:P G Tips
For me, it was out of sync with the prevailing trend -to open the game up- but I thought it compelling in its own way. the outcome was uncertain almost throughout.
Two well matched sides with carefully thought out game plans.
The downside is that this could bring in a new era of defence based rugby.
PG
(My bold text for emphasis.)
If it does I hope that Bath (763 points conceded in 21/22) get the memo
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 21:38
Quote:P G Tips
For me, it was out of sync with the prevailing trend -to open the game up- but I thought it compelling in its own way. the outcome was uncertain almost throughout.
Two well matched sides with carefully thought out game plans.
The downside is that this could bring in a new era of defence based rugby.
PG
That hopefully we will be leaders in!
Have to say that I expected little else to be honest. For me that is what we have to expect in terms of England going forward with the likes of Ford or Farrell at 10. Contrast that with last years final.
What did Farrell offer other than place kicking? I concede that the answer is a trophy but I just watched Ireland v Wales 1978 as a tribute to Phil Bennett in his last game. No forwards in the backs just centres running freely loved it.
PS Couple of Gareth Edwards reverse passes that went miles as well. Another lost skill!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OldMarovian (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 23:18
Very good win from Tigers and great to see Burns take his chance. No idea if we would have won it but feel that lack of ambition killed our chance. Frustrating as we lost exactly the same way when we went to Welford Road.
Hopefully the plus is that shakes any complacency out of the coaching team for next season.
Well that's it folks for this season.
I hope you all have a great off season and can I just say that what a great forum this is.
You've had a tough season but always been welcoming and happy to discuss rugby without it getting silly.
Here's to you my Bathy-chums!
Hopefully the plus is that shakes any complacency out of the coaching team for next season.
Well that's it folks for this season.
I hope you all have a great off season and can I just say that what a great forum this is.
You've had a tough season but always been welcoming and happy to discuss rugby without it getting silly.
Here's to you my Bathy-chums!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Optimist (IP Logged)
Date: 18/06/2022 23:54
Quote:hastaQuote:hasta
It's tough not to look at the way Freddie Burns has performed as back-up to George Ford and as experienced head to come off the bench and shake your head at the awful way he was man-managed here.
Pretty happy with this one!
A perfect microcosm of why we are where we are.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 01:31
We need reciprocal man management at Bath where the fans manage the players who manage the coaches and the coaches manage the DoR who tells the owner how to spend the money.
Taking it to the next level the owner tells the council what the stadium will look like.
How hard is it?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Taking it to the next level the owner tells the council what the stadium will look like.
How hard is it?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 08:00
I doubt that game will have won union any converts to the cause. Well played Tigs, I suppose, but my word it was dull.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: charlieboa (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 08:16
Quote:shipwrecked
Heard a comment about Sinfield that was he has given the side an identity.
Similar to comments about Shaun Edwards doing the same for Wales.
I’m hoping JPF can do the same for Bath !
I can imagine Kevin sinfield being a top bloke and a truly inspirational leader.
I hope jvg is comparable to borthers and jpf to sinfield but need some convincing!
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 08:36
Quote:joethefanatic
I doubt that game will have won union any converts to the cause. Well played Tigs, I suppose, but my word it was dull.
Couldn’t agree more and it’s the main reason I watch more Super rugby games. As a neutral I’d also choose a Top 14 game over a PL game.
Having said that if Bath bored everyone to death but won the title I wouldn’t grumble that much I guess.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 09:18
Quote:OutsideBath
Having said that if Bath bored everyone to death but won the title I wouldn’t grumble that much I guess.
Although I wasn't excited by the game I think thats a bit unfair OB. Both Tigers and Sarries have played some adventurous and exciting rugby this year. Sarries scored the most in the league (769) and Tigers were 3rd (726) after Saints (764). However, that Tigers only conceded 452 points (1st) and Sarries 509 (3rd after Sale) meant that it was always going to be unstoppable force vs immovable object yesterday as these things often are. So, the fans of either team would have won the title watching their team playing good rugby - I suspect that neither was too bothered about the style in the final as long as their team came out on top.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: cb2 (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 09:45
I'm just glad it was over in normal time. On a plus note, well done to Steward for bouncing back from a terrible start.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 19/06/2022 14:17
It's a young Tigers team, next year will be the one where some of them really grow, Steward we all know about, but there's a queue of ex academy kids coming through. Whitcombe and Hayes in the front row are two I expect to go on maybe to in England tests in the none too distant future.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: by (IP Logged)
Date: 20/06/2022 09:48
I saw an interesting statistic in the build up. Ranking the teams by how many kicks they've made and how many meters they've made from kicking. It almost resembles the final premiership table.
[twitter.com]
[twitter.com]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: joethefanatic (IP Logged)
Date: 20/06/2022 20:05
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Rampant (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2022 11:09
What a yawn-fest
Tiggers kicked 90% of their possession which was 58 kicks in play, the most from any team this season!! Who said they didnt want the boring South African style in the Heineken Cup..its already more boring in the Prem..
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
Tiggers kicked 90% of their possession which was 58 kicks in play, the most from any team this season!! Who said they didnt want the boring South African style in the Heineken Cup..its already more boring in the Prem..
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2022 11:26
Quote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 21/06/2022 11:48
Not a great idea IMO OB- there is already too much "wolfpack defence" smothering creative attacking play because the current mini ruck leaves little separation between team in possession and team without. Thus it is easy for refs to ignore the offside which blights the modern game.
PG
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 10:24
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 10:31
Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Apply the existing laws. The kicker only has 5 seconds from there the ruck is over as a contest (i.e. the ball has been clearly won for a side). You are seeing a bit of this but still not really quick enough. There is no way that any scrum half would be able to thread a ball past more than 2 sets of legs and kick it in that time.
Law 15:17
When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
World Rugby could even make it 3 seconds if they really wanted it played immediately.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: annie blackthorn (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 10:35
On another note- George Ford has 'done his achilles', and needs an operation. Rather sad as that is not only his chance of touring, but also months of rehab. Suppose one could say he has been lucky with injury so far.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 10:46
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Apply the existing laws. The kicker only has 5 seconds from there the ruck is over as a contest (i.e. the ball has been clearly won for a side). You are seeing a bit of this but still not really quick enough. There is no way that any scrum half would be able to thread a ball past more than 2 sets of legs and kick it in that time.
Law 15:17
When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
World Rugby could even make it 3 seconds if they really wanted it played immediately.
Agree with this, I wondered if extending the scrum should require the additional player to be bound to TWO players rather than just one. That would mean you have to invest more forwards in the tactic freeing up the periphery of the scrum.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: tigerburnie (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 12:20
Aled Davies has been cited for his clash with Montoya, so perhaps it should have been a red card after all.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dorset Boy (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 12:53
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Apply the existing laws. The kicker only has 5 seconds from there the ruck is over as a contest (i.e. the ball has been clearly won for a side). You are seeing a bit of this but still not really quick enough. There is no way that any scrum half would be able to thread a ball past more than 2 sets of legs and kick it in that time.
Law 15:17
When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
World Rugby could even make it 3 seconds if they really wanted it played immediately.
Agree with this, I wondered if extending the scrum should require the additional player to be bound to TWO players rather than just one. That would mean you have to invest more forwards in the tactic freeing up the periphery of the scrum.
You could outlaw players from joining the ruck once the ref has said use it.
Refs should be encouraged to call use it much earlier.#Use it could be reduced from 5 to 3 seconds.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 13:13
I don't really have a problem with contestable kicks. If the kick doesn't wait half an hour to make the kick I don't see the problem?
I don't have a big problem with 5 seconds (is our attention spam really that short?) All that need to happen is to tell the refs to make it clear when you say "use it" you meant it. If the ball doesn't move im-mediate-ly (3 beats at a tempo dictated by the level of the game), its a scrum to the opposition.
How would a ruck start? One in there, ruck forms, second player binds to him and ...
I don't have a big problem with 5 seconds (is our attention spam really that short?) All that need to happen is to tell the refs to make it clear when you say "use it" you meant it. If the ball doesn't move im-mediate-ly (3 beats at a tempo dictated by the level of the game), its a scrum to the opposition.
Quote:shipwrecked
Agree with this, I wondered if extending the scrum should require the additional player to be bound to TWO players rather than just one. That would mean you have to invest more forwards in the tactic freeing up the periphery of the scrum.
How would a ruck start? One in there, ruck forms, second player binds to him and ...
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 13:19
Not sure I understand? Once formed there are two players there
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 13:24
I suppose if you wanted to make kicks more contestable get rid of the "5m run" part of the law? All players in front of the kicker are offside until they are behind the kicker, and must make every effort to get back onside. Probably increases the value of running the ball from a long kick. Moreover you player will get knackered from prolonged kick tennis.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: gaz59 (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 15:04
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Apply the existing laws. The kicker only has 5 seconds from there the ruck is over as a contest (i.e. the ball has been clearly won for a side). You are seeing a bit of this but still not really quick enough. There is no way that any scrum half would be able to thread a ball past more than 2 sets of legs and kick it in that time.
Law 15:17
When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.
World Rugby could even make it 3 seconds if they really wanted it played immediately.
Yep, get it. That would work
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 15:16
Quote:shipwrecked
Not sure I understand? Once formed there are two players there
One from either side, you have to join and bind from behind your back foot (hindmost point ). I can't see how you'd be in a great position to simultaneously bind (armpit to wrist) onto the opponent as well? To be honest, even if you did have two of our own players involved it would be pretty restricting to have to bind to both. Not that this is the way rucks work, but you have to codify laws to the way its supposed to work.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 15:30
Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanatic
How about just outlawing contestable high kicks? Grubbers are fine but, if the ball hasn't bounced, you can't contest possession with the defence.
How about outlawing the caterpillar to make it easier for box kicks to be charged down?
How could you do that in a way that was easy to ref?
Don’t allow any players to join the ruck once the SH is there. How often do we see the SH calling in 2 or 3 players to form a caterpillar to extend the space he has to kick?
Personally I’d be open to anything to reduce the amount of boring box kicks. The SH might think twice about kicking if there was a good chance he’d be charged down.
Clearly though something would have to be done about offside as this seems to be as acceptable as a crooked feed at the scrum in the modern game.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 15:44
Why do you find box kicking boring? Usually it ends in a contest for the ball and often then broken defences. The little wait whilst its build up is a tad annoying, see suggestions on reducing it, but honestly it feels like getting upset over very little. Its a few seconds. As mentioned, if you discourage it you let another defender step forward in the defensive line and get more attritional, defensive rugby.
As I say, meaninglessly punting the ball back and forth with no competition is dull, but there seems to be less of that these days anyway. Something to encourage players to run from that situation would seem to be the way to go here, see the last moments of the Wales vs Italy game. I'd go with saying by punting it back you're effectively putting 13 of your players offside for 10 seconds. That might do it.
As I say, meaninglessly punting the ball back and forth with no competition is dull, but there seems to be less of that these days anyway. Something to encourage players to run from that situation would seem to be the way to go here, see the last moments of the Wales vs Italy game. I'd go with saying by punting it back you're effectively putting 13 of your players offside for 10 seconds. That might do it.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: P G Tips (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 21:35
Aled Daives cited: [www.bbc.co.uk]
I remember thinking him lucky at the time to escape red.
No mention of a citing for Matt Scott, so the citing officer must have judged that one entirely passive but Davies's not.
PG
I remember thinking him lucky at the time to escape red.
No mention of a citing for Matt Scott, so the citing officer must have judged that one entirely passive but Davies's not.
PG
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 22/06/2022 22:54
One of the things that is so attractive about women's rugby is the lack of box kicking.
Its an admission that a team can't go forward by passing or running. Tributes to Phil Bennett recently featured a lot of Gareth Edwards ............ who rarely kicked the ball. Its rugby by percentages, I'm not a fan.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:23:09:28:59 by shipwrecked.
Its an admission that a team can't go forward by passing or running. Tributes to Phil Bennett recently featured a lot of Gareth Edwards ............ who rarely kicked the ball. Its rugby by percentages, I'm not a fan.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:06:23:09:28:59 by shipwrecked.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 09:21
I must admit, whilst I'm fully behind promoting women's sport and rugby, I don't find it particularly enjoyable. I'm not sure what I'm missing but it just doesn't seem to have the same impact.
Sure kicking is a valid, effective, potentially exciting form of attack. What's the problem with that? It's not always great, if done badly, but then then shovelling the ball down the line with no thought of what you're trying to achieve is pretty dull as well. We at Bath should know that better than anyone. I'd actually go further, without the threat of a kick its incredibly hard for any professional team to go forward by passing and running. You'd just hit a solid wall of defence time and time again. Is this really such a dull passage of play? Did it lead to a dull follow up?
[www.youtube.com]
Quote:shipwrecked
Its an admission that a team can't forward by passing or running.
Sure kicking is a valid, effective, potentially exciting form of attack. What's the problem with that? It's not always great, if done badly, but then then shovelling the ball down the line with no thought of what you're trying to achieve is pretty dull as well. We at Bath should know that better than anyone. I'd actually go further, without the threat of a kick its incredibly hard for any professional team to go forward by passing and running. You'd just hit a solid wall of defence time and time again. Is this really such a dull passage of play? Did it lead to a dull follow up?
[www.youtube.com]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 09:35
I was referring to box kicking specifically. Sure its effective because someone will drop the ball or fail to catch as your video proves.
Ever played in the backs when your 9 does all the kicking. You wait while the forwards win the ball got to the scrum half then the most best ball players who can run, jink, pass, dummy or use their blistering pace get ignored.
Simply unattractive.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Ever played in the backs when your 9 does all the kicking. You wait while the forwards win the ball got to the scrum half then the most best ball players who can run, jink, pass, dummy or use their blistering pace get ignored.
Simply unattractive.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 09:35
I must confess I'm not a box kick appreciator. Even if short in the scheme of things, the set-up and the planned 'rituals' of it all are tedious. It's become a trained set piece as the scrum and lineout are.
I seem to recall a time where scrum halves were supposed to have 3 seconds to use it. I wouldn't mind box kicks so much if they were under time constraint and therefore more organic and less practiced.
I seem to recall a time where scrum halves were supposed to have 3 seconds to use it. I wouldn't mind box kicks so much if they were under time constraint and therefore more organic and less practiced.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 09:50
Quote:shipwrecked
Ever played in the backs when your 9 does all the kicking.
Yes, I used to play back 3 so would often be part of the chase. As said, done well, it's a great chance to get you hands on the ball in broken play, then then you could: run, jink, pass, dummy or use your blistering pace. At the very least you can nail their catcher and put them under real pressure. As opposed to giving it to someone to truck up the field in the hope sucking in some defenders and making space. Usually you're doing it because you're at a phase in the game where that isn't advisable and isn't working. If you've any sense there's nothing "on" otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.
Quote:The bear
I seem to recall a time where scrum halves were supposed to have 3 seconds to use it
I think it's been 5 seconds as long as I can remember. The issue isn't the additional 2 seconds, its that it's not policed. Why isn't it policed? Because actually want the attack to be set up to compete and not just have the 9 aimlessly ping the ball down field with no chase.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 10:03
Quote:The Bear
I must confess I'm not a box kick appreciator. Even if short in the scheme of things, the set-up and the planned 'rituals' of it all are tedious. It's become a trained set piece as the scrum and lineout are.
+1
Much less tedious box kicking in Super rugby and the "product" is much more entertaining.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 11:18
Quote:OutsideBath
Much less tedious box kicking in Super rugby and the "product" is much more entertaining.
Super rugby really don't seem to be showing the way to getting more people watching. Quite the opposite really.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: The Bear (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 13:19
Quote:DanWileyQuote:OutsideBath
Much less tedious box kicking in Super rugby and the "product" is much more entertaining.
Super rugby really don't seem to be showing the way to getting more people watching. Quite the opposite really.
You're right - that's definitely because there's less box kicks...
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: Dan Wiley (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 13:23
No, but its clearly debatable whether 'the "product" is much more entertaining.'
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 14:41
Quote:DanWileyQuote:OutsideBath
Much less tedious box kicking in Super rugby and the "product" is much more entertaining.
Super rugby really don't seem to be showing the way to getting more people watching. Quite the opposite really.
I'd be interested to see the TV viewing figures you have used to backup your statement.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: OutsideBath (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 15:06
Quote:BathMatt53
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/13/super-rugby-tv-ratings-drop-ahead-of-blues-crusaders-showdown/
Nielson TAM appear to be focussed on the Australian market, no mention of NZ or UK based TV audiences in the short article. Worth noting though that streaming packages are proving popular.
Besides though I was interested to know what DW used to base his assertion that Super rugby isn't entertaining.
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: BathMatt53 (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 16:55
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/13/super-rugby-tv-ratings-drop-ahead-of-blues-crusaders-showdown/
Nielson TAM appear to be focussed on the Australian market, no mention of NZ or UK based TV audiences in the short article. Worth noting though that streaming packages are proving popular.
Besides though I was interested to know what DW used to base his assertion that Super rugby isn't entertaining.
I loved the super rugby aotearoa in lockdown, they threw it around like BaaBaas.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re: CLASH OF STYLES. PREMIERSHIP PLAYOFFS
Posted by: shipwrecked (IP Logged)
Date: 23/06/2022 17:26
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/13/super-rugby-tv-ratings-drop-ahead-of-blues-crusaders-showdown/
Nielson TAM appear to be focussed on the Australian market, no mention of NZ or UK based TV audiences in the short article. Worth noting though that streaming packages are proving popular.
Besides though I was interested to know what DW used to base his assertion that Super rugby isn't entertaining.
I loved the super rugby aotearoa in lockdown, they threw it around like BaaBaas.
Agree Matt, there are loads of tries scored from behind the line that are great to watch usually in the.Premiership it’s all about avoid ‘exit’kick
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