Are we going through a talent drain?
By Phill the Warrior
January 1 2013
As the silly season begins it got me thinking about the comings and goings of recent seasons and made me wonder if we are losing talent or making natural progression into a stable team with a future in the premiership.
This season saw Warriors make some wholesale changes to the squad with 13 leaving and 11 (including Euan Murray and Richard de Carpentier) coming in. Of the 13 making the exit Fortey, Douglas, Tomasczyk, Gulliver, Muagutitia, Crockett, Rasmussen, Tu’ipulotu and Arscott were considered as surplus to requirements and Horstmann classed as such by many. This leaves Hayter, a possible returnee and Garvey and Benjamin considered ‘lost talent’.
All or most at least have replacements, either brought in this season or the season before: Fortey - Hayes, Douglas - Andress, Tomasczyk – O’Donnell, Gulliver - Schofield, Muagututia - Taulava, Crockett - Clarke, Rasmussen / Tu’ipulotu - Matavesi, Arscott / Hayter – Howard, Horstmann - Cowan, Garvey - Lemi and Benjamin – Walker. Adding Paul Hodgson, Murray and de Carpentier to the squad.
It must also be mentioned that the academy squad went through a massive ‘rationalization’ with the current academy squad being only 12 players, 2 of which; Currie and de Carpentier cannot really be considered academy.
With a mixture of performances so far this season this could be considered a net gain in terms of squad resources and talent. The big challenge would appear what happens next?
It is well reported that we have the bulk of our squad up for contract renewal at the end of the 2012/13 season, with James Percival being the only recorded signing:
Tevita Taumoepeau
Rob O'Donnell
Ewan Murray
Matt Mullan
George Porter
Ceri Jones
Aleki Lutui
Edd Shervington
Ollie Hayes
Craig Gillies
Matt Kvesic
Neil Best
Sam Betty
Blair Cowan
Richard DeCarpentier
Ollie Frost
Shaun Perry
Andy Goode
Joey Carlisle
Danny Gray
John Clarke
Andy Short
Josh Drauniniu
Errie Claassens
James Currie
Based on age, perceived squad importance and recent performances the following could be considered talent drain, if not retained:
Matt Mullan
George Porter
Edd Shervington
Ollie Hayes
Matt Kvesic
Sam Betty
Blair Cowan
Joey Carlisle
Andy Short
James Currie
Two key names being Matt Mullan and Matt Kvesic.
It should also be acknowledged that some of the current squad could be considered replacements for those, seemingly, about to leave; Dave – Murray, Ceri Jones – Porter, Best – Betty, Hodgson – Perry, Howard – Claassens and mabe some others such as Kvesic – de Carpentier.
The academy, though much smaller than previous seasons contains players with great future prospect, such as Currie, having made many first team appearances in 2012, many lads playing regular Championship rugby and age group internationals such as Howard and Watkins currently in the England U20 setup.
Is it possible that, assuming we retain the current talent and build even further, that we are not going through the talent drain, names such as; Wood, Kitchener, Benjamin and Garvey would suggest, that we are actually increasing the squad resources and building towards a strong and stable future?
Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Comeonyouwarriors.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2013 18:07
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:16:16:07:05 by Powick Eastander.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:16:16:07:05 by Powick Eastander.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: usa warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2013 18:15
I feel preparations need to be made for Craig Gillies' retirement as well. No direct replacement at lock to my knowledge.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2013 18:28
Fully agree USAW if I'm honest I think we will need new:
Loosehead
Lock
6,7,8
10
Wing
15
Plus some squad players to replace any that leave
Loosehead
Lock
6,7,8
10
Wing
15
Plus some squad players to replace any that leave
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: usa warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2013 18:44
Is that pessimism regarding Mullan, Kvesic, and Goode? Not good!
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2013 19:04
Mullan and Kvesic yes, Goode no, think we need to replace Gray and possibly Joey
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Maul Master (IP Logged)
Date: 02/01/2013 06:29
Quote:WarriorPhill
Mullan and Kvesic yes, Goode no, think we need to replace Gray and possibly Joey
Can't see the club loosing both.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Fouroak (IP Logged)
Date: 02/01/2013 14:12
IMO some of those we have signed have been better than the people who left or who are loikely to go in the near future. Some are not - but that was and is the way of such things. We do need to mind our better players like MM and MK, but some are going to get cut adrift like O'Donnell who, despite his size, is still as bad bow as when TT spent an evening shoving him around Manchester 3 years ago. We could do with a couple of more dynamic forwards, we are too reliant on AG and we need great line breaking ability in the outside backs - Grove and Josh are good players, not convinced by clark at all; walker is good after the first 10 yards when weight and power play a part, but "nippy" is not where he is at at all. On another thread there is chatter about the performace at Sale - disappointing for sure, but the way people over analyse every last detail does make me wonder quite what it is that people want and expect - more wins of course, sod the style would be my vote
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 02/01/2013 14:50
Good points Fouroak. Is it not possible though that Jake Abbott could be the ready made 'replacement' for Kvesic if he was to leave?
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Warrior7 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/01/2013 10:51
Don't think we need extra backrowers, minus best we still have Betty, Abbott, Kvesic, Taulava, Cowan and De carpentier.
But a new -5- would be needed. Not a 4 like Percy and Schof, a 5 like jones and gillies.
But a new -5- would be needed. Not a 4 like Percy and Schof, a 5 like jones and gillies.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 05/01/2013 06:41
My statement on needing a new back row is based on the assumption that either Jake or Kvesic will leave
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 30/01/2013 09:10
To quote myself:
“Based on age, perceived squad importance and recent performances the following could be considered talent drain, if not retained:
Matt Mullan 
George Porter 
Edd Shervington 
Ollie Hayes 
Matt Kvesic 
Sam Betty 
Blair Cowan 
Joey Carlisle 
Andy Short 
James Currie
Two key names being Matt Mullan and Matt Kvesic.”
So far, yes it is early days, we have lost, about to lose or are rumored to have lost:
Mullan (Wasps), Kvesic (CL on H&W Radio), Carlisle (Wasps) and Short (Bristol). It has been confirmed that Shervington and Betty are staying, which is a real positive.
With these losses I guess we could consider ourselves in a talent drain, though we are a long way from knowing the squad of 2013/14
“Based on age, perceived squad importance and recent performances the following could be considered talent drain, if not retained:
Matt Mullan 
George Porter 
Edd Shervington 
Ollie Hayes 
Matt Kvesic 
Sam Betty 
Blair Cowan 
Joey Carlisle 
Andy Short 
James Currie
Two key names being Matt Mullan and Matt Kvesic.”
So far, yes it is early days, we have lost, about to lose or are rumored to have lost:
Mullan (Wasps), Kvesic (CL on H&W Radio), Carlisle (Wasps) and Short (Bristol). It has been confirmed that Shervington and Betty are staying, which is a real positive.
With these losses I guess we could consider ourselves in a talent drain, though we are a long way from knowing the squad of 2013/14
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: TeflonTed (IP Logged)
Date: 30/01/2013 09:31
Fair enough review Phil.
I did say right back in Sept that this would not be our breakthrough year, and predicted 10th.
Every year wallowing around the foot of the table makes recruitment more difficult as folk have a expectation of us being potential relegation fodder.
I still see a real risk of us slipping into the relegation battle again, and last Sat's performance against Irish was deeply concerning, we have yet to visit MadStad, and play LW at Kassam in the last round. 2 key head to heads, 2 away games, against 2 of the 3 teams below us currently.
We may well yet see Sale save our bacon!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:30:09:44:38 by TeflonTed.
I did say right back in Sept that this would not be our breakthrough year, and predicted 10th.
Every year wallowing around the foot of the table makes recruitment more difficult as folk have a expectation of us being potential relegation fodder.
I still see a real risk of us slipping into the relegation battle again, and last Sat's performance against Irish was deeply concerning, we have yet to visit MadStad, and play LW at Kassam in the last round. 2 key head to heads, 2 away games, against 2 of the 3 teams below us currently.
We may well yet see Sale save our bacon!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:01:30:09:44:38 by TeflonTed.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: WarriorPhill (IP Logged)
Date: 21/03/2013 12:23
Thought I would raise this question again - As of now, with these comings and goings:
NEW ARRIVALS
1. Leonardo Senatore - New signing announced 23/1/13 from Toulon. No length but agent announced 2yrs on Twitter. Argentinian international, Position 6/8
2. Paul Warwick - New signing announced 25/1/13 from Stade. Position predominately 10 also 15
3. Augustin Creevy - New signing announced 6/2/13 from Montpellier. Position Hooker
4. Ignacio Mieres - New signing announced 6/2/13 from Exeter. Position Fly Half
5. Paul Andrew - New signing announced 18/3/13 from Pirates. Position Loose Head
6. Ofa - Big lad from Glasgow / Tonga announced 21/03/2013
UNCONFIRMED
1. Tevita Taumoepeau (Assumed 1yr contract due to age)
2. Rob O'Donnell (Information from player)
3. Ceri Jones
4. Aleki Lutui
5. Neil Best
6. Ollie Frost
7. Shaun Perry
SIGNED ON
1. Ewan Murray - New 2yr contract announced 30/1/13
2. George Porter - New contract announced 29/1/13
3. Edd Shervington - New contract announced 29/1/13
4. Sam Betty - New contract announced 29/1/13
5. Richard DeCarpentier - New contract announced 29/1/13
6. Jonny Arr - New contract announced 25/1/13
7. Josh Drauniniu - New contract announced 16/1/13, no length anounced but discloses 2 yrs in interview with worcester News
8. Chris Pennell - New contract announced 23/1/13 no length announced but implied 2yrs in radio interview.
9. Ben Howard - New contract announced 20/2/13, no length announced. Not sure if still classed as academy player.
10. Ollie Hayes - New contract announced 18/3/13, no length announced.
11. Craig Gillies - New contract announced 20/3/13, no length length announced.
LEAVING
1. Matt Mullan - Confirmed signed for Wasps 28/1/13
2. Matt Kvesic - Confirmed signed for Glous 6/2/13
3. Blair Cowan - Confirmed signed for Irish 14/3/12
4. Andy Goode - Confirmed signed for Wasps 5/3/13
5. Joey Carlisle - Confirmed signed for Wasps 20/2/13
6. Andy Short - Confirmed signed for Bristol 30/1/13
7. Errie Claassens - Confirmed leaving for Bristol 25/1/13
Do we have a talent drain or are we managing the squad?
NEW ARRIVALS
1. Leonardo Senatore - New signing announced 23/1/13 from Toulon. No length but agent announced 2yrs on Twitter. Argentinian international, Position 6/8
2. Paul Warwick - New signing announced 25/1/13 from Stade. Position predominately 10 also 15
3. Augustin Creevy - New signing announced 6/2/13 from Montpellier. Position Hooker
4. Ignacio Mieres - New signing announced 6/2/13 from Exeter. Position Fly Half
5. Paul Andrew - New signing announced 18/3/13 from Pirates. Position Loose Head
6. Ofa - Big lad from Glasgow / Tonga announced 21/03/2013
UNCONFIRMED
1. Tevita Taumoepeau (Assumed 1yr contract due to age)
2. Rob O'Donnell (Information from player)
3. Ceri Jones
4. Aleki Lutui
5. Neil Best
6. Ollie Frost
7. Shaun Perry
SIGNED ON
1. Ewan Murray - New 2yr contract announced 30/1/13
2. George Porter - New contract announced 29/1/13
3. Edd Shervington - New contract announced 29/1/13
4. Sam Betty - New contract announced 29/1/13
5. Richard DeCarpentier - New contract announced 29/1/13
6. Jonny Arr - New contract announced 25/1/13
7. Josh Drauniniu - New contract announced 16/1/13, no length anounced but discloses 2 yrs in interview with worcester News
8. Chris Pennell - New contract announced 23/1/13 no length announced but implied 2yrs in radio interview.
9. Ben Howard - New contract announced 20/2/13, no length announced. Not sure if still classed as academy player.
10. Ollie Hayes - New contract announced 18/3/13, no length announced.
11. Craig Gillies - New contract announced 20/3/13, no length length announced.
LEAVING
1. Matt Mullan - Confirmed signed for Wasps 28/1/13
2. Matt Kvesic - Confirmed signed for Glous 6/2/13
3. Blair Cowan - Confirmed signed for Irish 14/3/12
4. Andy Goode - Confirmed signed for Wasps 5/3/13
5. Joey Carlisle - Confirmed signed for Wasps 20/2/13
6. Andy Short - Confirmed signed for Bristol 30/1/13
7. Errie Claassens - Confirmed leaving for Bristol 25/1/13
Do we have a talent drain or are we managing the squad?
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: ROLLO (IP Logged)
Date: 21/03/2013 12:33
With the statement made by RH when the Matt's departures were announced I can only think we will have a few more signings of substance to be announced so it is too early as yet to say.
We also need to know what the coaching set up regarding attack is to be.
We also need to know what the coaching set up regarding attack is to be.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: The Mailman (IP Logged)
Date: 21/03/2013 13:11
I'm not sure I can see many more big signings to be honest. Maybe a few more hopefuls from the championship but nothing which is going to boost the first XV immediately. I'd give recruitment so far a C+ adequate. We were promised big things, but I'm not convinced that the players coming in (bearing in mind availablity etc) are much better than the ones leaving.
I'm sure the club tried to recruit quality players, but for whatever reason it didn't work out. Richard Hill isn't one of those charasmatic bosses that players love to play for, and Worcester is not a sexy club ... yet. The name of the game is getting guys in that represent a good balance of quality and value for money - beneath the radar guys if you like.
The club may have unearthed a few diamonds thus far, and I like the idea of beefing up the pack, so we'll just have to see how next year goes. It will be a tough season. Can't see Sale and Irish struggling as much, and Falcons (if they win the playoffs) will be no pushovers.
Personally, I will be happy next year if the team can start to find a little consistency and play together well as a unit. An away win at some point would be nice too! Once again I think that top 6 is pie in the sky, but you never know what's possible if the team gels and Hilly can foster a good team spirit.
I'm sure the club tried to recruit quality players, but for whatever reason it didn't work out. Richard Hill isn't one of those charasmatic bosses that players love to play for, and Worcester is not a sexy club ... yet. The name of the game is getting guys in that represent a good balance of quality and value for money - beneath the radar guys if you like.
The club may have unearthed a few diamonds thus far, and I like the idea of beefing up the pack, so we'll just have to see how next year goes. It will be a tough season. Can't see Sale and Irish struggling as much, and Falcons (if they win the playoffs) will be no pushovers.
Personally, I will be happy next year if the team can start to find a little consistency and play together well as a unit. An away win at some point would be nice too! Once again I think that top 6 is pie in the sky, but you never know what's possible if the team gels and Hilly can foster a good team spirit.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Turnover (IP Logged)
Date: 21/03/2013 21:52
Next season will certainly be no easier than this. If anything it will be harder, assuming Falcons are promoted.
I think 6th is a tad optimistic at this stage as I'm not sure we will have quality in squad depth. What really concerns me is that we do seem to lack the ability to recruit high quality players. I don't believe it's all about Heineken cup opportunity. If you look at what Worcester offers in terms of facilities,infrastructure and potential it is a very attractive proposition.
I think 6th is a tad optimistic at this stage as I'm not sure we will have quality in squad depth. What really concerns me is that we do seem to lack the ability to recruit high quality players. I don't believe it's all about Heineken cup opportunity. If you look at what Worcester offers in terms of facilities,infrastructure and potential it is a very attractive proposition.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: The Mailman (IP Logged)
Date: 21/03/2013 22:47
There's an elephant in the room, but I doubt that anyone will have the nerve to say it. Maybe if Mr Goode had an account on this forum ... 
Just rumour you hear on the grapevine. Probably rubbish, but there's got to be a reason hasn't there.
Just rumour you hear on the grapevine. Probably rubbish, but there's got to be a reason hasn't there.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: usa warrior (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 07:19
Reason for what??
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: The Mailman (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 08:35
A reason why worcester have brilliant facilities, a good fan base, nice stadium, excellent potential, yet very few UK based players want to play for us. I'm not going to elaborate because we'll inevitably get into hearsay, conjecture and (probably) unfair speculation about reputations within the game. Just because you hear X, Y and Z about someone, and how they're perceived, doesn't make it true. Plus we had exactly the same debate about Ruddock, and that got boring very quickly. Few people really know why he left Wales after the grand slam. I doubt we can pinpoint why we struggle to attract the better UK based players either. But people will always have their suspicions (which they have no firm evidence for).
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: southstand (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 08:56
I just want to see players at Sixways who want to play for the team, the coach, each other, and ultimately, us.
I don't want international stars, just players who give their all and play to the limits of their ability.
However much talent an individual has, if he doesn't want to be here, I'd prefer he played elsewhere.
Simplistic view ? Probably, but enough to keep me turning up every week.
I don't want international stars, just players who give their all and play to the limits of their ability.
However much talent an individual has, if he doesn't want to be here, I'd prefer he played elsewhere.
Simplistic view ? Probably, but enough to keep me turning up every week.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: ROLLO (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 09:28
I said the same thing about WCCC Southstand,and am happy that the squad performed to 100% effort, unfortunatly there is also no substitute for ability and we failed in every competition.
The same will happen in rugby - As I posted above I can only beleive , in view of the statement made by RH, that there is more to come.
The same will happen in rugby - As I posted above I can only beleive , in view of the statement made by RH, that there is more to come.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: Turnover (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 10:19
Mailman, I agree entirely.There is little point in posting what cannot be substantiated. However, when it comes out of more than one horses mouth you begin to wonder.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: ROLLO (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 10:23
Turnover and Mailman I believe it will be substantiated one way or the other by the results we achieve.
Re: Are we going through a talent drain?
Posted by: The Mailman (IP Logged)
Date: 22/03/2013 10:53
And the players who do and don't sign for us
Personally I don't care whether the guys we recruit are big names or not. If they're big names and they perform, then great! If they're previously unknowns who perform well, then great!
I just want to see Worcester progress really. I want to look up the table not down, and cling on to the dream that one day Worcester might be champions of England, or even champions of Europe. It CAN happen. Rugby isn't yet like football where 99% of clubs can never hope to win the Premier League because they don't have the funds (and are basically there to make up the numbers). That's why I don't watch football anymore. If you support anyone other than Man Ure, Chelski or Man Citeh, the whole exercise is utterly futile.
For some people, the ritual of going to matches (irrespective of whether their team can go on to win anything) is enough. For me it isn't. I want Worcester to win - and be the best; therefore I'm generally in favour of anything that makes that ambition more likely. On the other hand, I'm against changes that will set the club backwards .... which brings us pack to the focus of this thread. Is next year's squad looking better than this year's squad? You can summarise it thus:
Are Mieres, Leo & Ofa better than Goode, Kev & Matt? I'm not sure I can say really. It's close. We'll have to see what happens next year. We don't yet know if Ofa or Leo can cut it in English rugby (although I'm more confident about the former based on his international pedigree). The one big area of improvement should be hooker, with a top player coming in. However, it has to be a big worry that other clubs are shunning Argentinians whilst we're signing them up? Although our guys will be available during the six nations, they'll miss a big chunk of the season. Meanwhile, home nations squad players are often released to play for their clubs in between internationals. Argentinians won't be able to do this in the Rugby Championship because of jet lag etc.
I think having doubts about the way recruitment is shaping up for next year is natural. It's a big gamble IMHO. That's not to say it won't work out though.
Personally I don't care whether the guys we recruit are big names or not. If they're big names and they perform, then great! If they're previously unknowns who perform well, then great!
I just want to see Worcester progress really. I want to look up the table not down, and cling on to the dream that one day Worcester might be champions of England, or even champions of Europe. It CAN happen. Rugby isn't yet like football where 99% of clubs can never hope to win the Premier League because they don't have the funds (and are basically there to make up the numbers). That's why I don't watch football anymore. If you support anyone other than Man Ure, Chelski or Man Citeh, the whole exercise is utterly futile.
For some people, the ritual of going to matches (irrespective of whether their team can go on to win anything) is enough. For me it isn't. I want Worcester to win - and be the best; therefore I'm generally in favour of anything that makes that ambition more likely. On the other hand, I'm against changes that will set the club backwards .... which brings us pack to the focus of this thread. Is next year's squad looking better than this year's squad? You can summarise it thus:
Are Mieres, Leo & Ofa better than Goode, Kev & Matt? I'm not sure I can say really. It's close. We'll have to see what happens next year. We don't yet know if Ofa or Leo can cut it in English rugby (although I'm more confident about the former based on his international pedigree). The one big area of improvement should be hooker, with a top player coming in. However, it has to be a big worry that other clubs are shunning Argentinians whilst we're signing them up? Although our guys will be available during the six nations, they'll miss a big chunk of the season. Meanwhile, home nations squad players are often released to play for their clubs in between internationals. Argentinians won't be able to do this in the Rugby Championship because of jet lag etc.
I think having doubts about the way recruitment is shaping up for next year is natural. It's a big gamble IMHO. That's not to say it won't work out though.
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