League Shake Up Planned
League Shake Up Planned
By Andrew Collins
January 27 2008
Once again the idiots in charge of the Magner’s League are planning yet more changes to the way the league runs, and even the teams in it. The latest proposals to make the league more entertaining include bringing in two Italian sides, what will they think of next?
Try and think of some of the bad things with the Magner's League kick offs, too far to travel to away games, lack of decent competition, silly kick off times all spring to mind. So what are the highly paid men running our league planning to do, to make it more appealing to fans and respected world wide? Add 2 Italian teams.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the currently best two Italian would be Viadana and Treviso, both of whom ‘competed' in this years Heineken Cup. The pair combined scraped together 8 points, including 1 win (Treviso Vs Dragons), 0 draws and 11 losses.
Also, if my Geography is correct, Italy is around a 2 hour flight or so. Now just looking on BMI Baby's web site, one of the only budget Airlines who fly from Cardiff that I'm aware of, they don't fly to anywhere in Italy.
So then I tried RyanAir.com, a budget airline that fly from Bristol. They go to Turin, north west Italy, Treviso is located North East while Viadana is slightly closer, central north Italy.
The fact is getting to these games, as if they weren't unattractive fixtures anyway, is going to take a serious effort.
One option is to re-locate them in England. Well now what is the point in that? Why not just invite the Cornish Pirates or one of the other National League 1 English teams to come to the League? They would offer similar quality fixtures, plus at least probably more home fans.
What else looks set to change in the next 2 years is the successful cup competition, the EDF Anglo-Welsh Cup. While the RFC want to lose the cup due to the amount of fixtures in their domestic campaign, does anyone ever canvass the supporters opinion? From my experience, it has provided higher average attendances than the current Magner's League, plus far more rivalry and quality of matches.
One thing that would improve the competition within the League which at long last they have realised, is to put the best 7 teams in the Heineken Cup, regardless of nationality. As it stands, unless you're involved in winning the league, it's a pretty dull season for fans, who are watching matches that depend whether they come 8th, 6th or 4th, hardly enthralling given that it doesn't make any difference. By adding positional-based qualification, it adds the kind of dimension that comes in the Guinness Premiership and even the type of struggle associated with relegation battles.
At the moment, these are just ‘informal discussions', but it's something that's been on the cards for a long time. The sooner they stop messing about with the league, the sooner it will develop on its own, and create its own history and prestige. There are things that, if changed, would make the league much more enjoyable. Things such as sensible kick off times and making more money available for the clubs to attract the best foreign players, and ultimately stop the likes of Dwaine Peel moving to England. However, these are the things not even being addressed by the league's chiefs.
The WRU should be looking to get out of the Magner's League at the next possible chance, and do whatever it takes to get into the Guinness Premiership. Let's see how well we develop then.
League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: theArmsPark.co.uk (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2008 15:48
League Shake Up Planned
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: DRY (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2008 19:03
ME AND MY MATE HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR AGES. THE TOP 6 OR 7 TEAMS QUALIFY FOR THE HEIN CUP REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY. PERHAPS THE IRISH SIDES MIGHT THEN BE BOTHERED TO TURN UP LOOKING AS IF THEY AT LEAST CARE. IT CERTAINLY BACKFIRED FOR THEM IN THE WORLD CUP. RESULTS DON'T LIE.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: jenksta (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2008 21:12
I think its a good idea. Get the league up to 12 teams. Means more games for us to see, more revenue for the clubs, develops the Italian teams.
I do agree with your point on HEC qualification.
Lets be honest, we are in the Magners for the foreseeable future. Who is going to take us into their league? So lets make it work.
Appoligise for the standards of myu posts having problems with the site tonight!
I do agree with your point on HEC qualification.
Lets be honest, we are in the Magners for the foreseeable future. Who is going to take us into their league? So lets make it work.
Appoligise for the standards of myu posts having problems with the site tonight!
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Reservoir Prop (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2008 22:54
Clubs can't get sufficient revenue from the present structure so adding teams seems the only option. The fact that they are Italian sums up what a crash scene the whole competition is.
All that happens will be that standards will fall (as they have done recently).
Good competition from the Dragons.
All that happens will be that standards will fall (as they have done recently).
Good competition from the Dragons.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Reservoir Prop (IP Logged)
Date: 27/01/2008 22:55
Quote:Reservoir Prop
Clubs can't get sufficient revenue from the present structure so adding teams seems the only option. The fact that they are Italian sums up what a crash scene the whole competition is.
All that happens will be that standards will fall (as they have done recently).
Good competition from the Dragons, mind you.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Bob Garage (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 08:37
increasing the number of teams in the league is the only way forward.
i think Cornish Pirates, London Welsh and Maybe another scottish region (providing the sfu get there @#$%& in gear) is a better option than the italians though.
i think Cornish Pirates, London Welsh and Maybe another scottish region (providing the sfu get there @#$%& in gear) is a better option than the italians though.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: ExiledinStaffs (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 11:06
I'm not sure about letting Italian teams in is the answer by any sorts - just seams unfeasable to me. I too have been saying for ages that you should only get into the Heineken cup on league merit, that way the ML will be infinitely more competative since all teams want to play in the HC.
Keep the Italians out.
Bring in ML HC qualification.
Keep the Italians out.
Bring in ML HC qualification.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: smudgerblue (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 11:16
One of the reports of the weekend suggested that the Irish and ourselves where all for the Heinekein qualification based a final league standings, however, the Scots weren't.
Could each country be guaranteed one place and all the remaining places go by league standings? It's a poor compromise, but could work.
Regards the Italians I'd let them in but only if the league placings determine HC qualification.
We need to develop the league - the English are not interested.
We should also work towards bringing in another team into the league, once the Dragons have sorted themselves out - possibly a team from North Wales? I understand that there are plans to have a North Wales regional side put in the Premiership by 2010.
Could each country be guaranteed one place and all the remaining places go by league standings? It's a poor compromise, but could work.
Regards the Italians I'd let them in but only if the league placings determine HC qualification.
We need to develop the league - the English are not interested.
We should also work towards bringing in another team into the league, once the Dragons have sorted themselves out - possibly a team from North Wales? I understand that there are plans to have a North Wales regional side put in the Premiership by 2010.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: jenksta (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 11:17
Quote:Reservoir Prop
Clubs can't get sufficient revenue from the present structure so adding teams seems the only option. The fact that they are Italian sums up what a crash scene the whole competition is.
All that happens will be that standards will fall (as they have done recently).
Good competition from the Dragons.
Disagree, the Italian teams are becoming more and more competative. Its not long ago that we had some difficult winning away in Italy and the Italian teams showed they are a difficult propersition in Italy in the HEC this season. Playing in the likes of the Magners league will speed this development.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Rich. (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 12:08
But surely having Italy's two best teams playing in the ML will be very bad news for the development of Italian rugby as it takes the top opposition away from the other teams.
I can see why the Scots won't go for it and don't blame them - the HOPE might be in the decisions made this Thursday about how to seed for HC pools next year. If all teams are seeded then ML place should be used to determine HC seeding and so it'll be worth putting in effort into the ML to help you get an 'easier' HC pool the followiung year. That plus more money the higher your ML position are what I see as the only ways around this.
I can see why the Scots won't go for it and don't blame them - the HOPE might be in the decisions made this Thursday about how to seed for HC pools next year. If all teams are seeded then ML place should be used to determine HC seeding and so it'll be worth putting in effort into the ML to help you get an 'easier' HC pool the followiung year. That plus more money the higher your ML position are what I see as the only ways around this.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: mackumbliues (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 12:39
Italian teams joining the ML makes no sense whatsoever from a financial point of view. The cost of flights for the teams going out there and the hotel fees must surely be more than the gate receipts for the home games.
If you are going to redevelop the league then you need to make it more competitive. The only way to do that is to make league position irrespective of country the criteria for qualification to the HC. You could also try and get entry for teams from Cornwall London Welsh and Scottish. It would be nice if Irish would come over as well but given their in the GP that isn't going to happen.
As for the EDF instead of scrapping it make it a straight knock out competition perhaps over 2 legs home and away up to the Semi Finals play the semis on a neutral ground played in the country of whoever comes out of the hat first.
If you are going to redevelop the league then you need to make it more competitive. The only way to do that is to make league position irrespective of country the criteria for qualification to the HC. You could also try and get entry for teams from Cornwall London Welsh and Scottish. It would be nice if Irish would come over as well but given their in the GP that isn't going to happen.
As for the EDF instead of scrapping it make it a straight knock out competition perhaps over 2 legs home and away up to the Semi Finals play the semis on a neutral ground played in the country of whoever comes out of the hat first.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Blues_Chris (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 13:11
Say a match is on the Friday, you fly out in the morning and then come back in the evening. Teams do the same thing when they play in Ireland, France and Scotland.
Air-travel is also one of the cheapest forms of travel in the modern age. Don't forget that sports teams will likely have reductions in the amount they have to pay by using the airline company often.
Air-travel is also one of the cheapest forms of travel in the modern age. Don't forget that sports teams will likely have reductions in the amount they have to pay by using the airline company often.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Mackumblues (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 14:44
I was trying to be sarcaastic re the cost of getting there but the fact remains would you watch Trevisso and Calvasano every year.
Personally I'd watch the Blues whatever the opponents but it looks to me as if it would be another 2 or 3 thousand crowd whereas the Cornish Pirates or Plymouth Albion (I know Plymouth's in Devon and I can't remember which division Penzance are currently in) would be attractive opposition and would probably bring a lot of support up with them as would London Scottish or London Welsh.
Personally I'd watch the Blues whatever the opponents but it looks to me as if it would be another 2 or 3 thousand crowd whereas the Cornish Pirates or Plymouth Albion (I know Plymouth's in Devon and I can't remember which division Penzance are currently in) would be attractive opposition and would probably bring a lot of support up with them as would London Scottish or London Welsh.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: smudgerblue (IP Logged)
Date: 28/01/2008 15:08
Ways to make Magners stronger:
1) HC places based on position in league (irrespective of country); this single action would be huge for the league - it would mean that no single game was meaningless. This has been mentioned many times.
2) Kick-off times rather than days; still think the 7.10pm slot on Friday is truely awful. Should be delayed until at least 7.30pm if not 8pm.
3) Invest in producing better quality ref's (can we loan employ some ref's from the southern hemisphere); the poor standard of ref's has a huge impact on the quality of rugby.
4) Rugby Special type program on BBC seen across UK showing hihlights of Magners League.
5) Winners of Magners League play winners of Guinness Premiership.
6) Fixture list completed with kick-off times before the start of the season.
Other measures to improve quality of rugby...
7) Play 'A' grade games with Guinness Premiership
That's a few to start with
1) HC places based on position in league (irrespective of country); this single action would be huge for the league - it would mean that no single game was meaningless. This has been mentioned many times.
2) Kick-off times rather than days; still think the 7.10pm slot on Friday is truely awful. Should be delayed until at least 7.30pm if not 8pm.
3) Invest in producing better quality ref's (can we loan employ some ref's from the southern hemisphere); the poor standard of ref's has a huge impact on the quality of rugby.
4) Rugby Special type program on BBC seen across UK showing hihlights of Magners League.
5) Winners of Magners League play winners of Guinness Premiership.
6) Fixture list completed with kick-off times before the start of the season.
Other measures to improve quality of rugby...
7) Play 'A' grade games with Guinness Premiership
That's a few to start with
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Reservoir Prop (IP Logged)
Date: 29/01/2008 04:02
If the Saes chose to devalue the EDF and pick their second XVs, which will be the stronger? The Saes 2nd XV or the Italian teams that play in Wales? And who will draw the larger crowds - Saes or Italians?
This really is a poor idea. But by failing to do everything possible to get into the English club system, it's all the WRU have left.
You reap what you sow.
This really is a poor idea. But by failing to do everything possible to get into the English club system, it's all the WRU have left.
You reap what you sow.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: mackumblues (IP Logged)
Date: 29/01/2008 09:53
RP who drew the bigger crowd this season a second string Sale or Connaught. To the best of my memory it was Sale. Leicester and Bath at the Arms Park next season if they reverse this seasons EDF games will draw approaching 10,000 because of the oppositions name.
When we played the rebel Season even though we were playing English second teams by the end CAP was full most weeks. At the moment Trevisso and Calvisano don't have the same appeal. When we played Calvasano 2 seasons ago at CAP we had a NZ legend on our wings. It was the chance to see him play not the opposition who filled CAP
Playing the EDF as a straight knockout competition might give the English the opportunity to field weaker teams in the early rounds but given Wasps league position and the fact that as far as the English are concerned the EDF winners get a HC place I very much doubt Wasps will be under strength in the Semi Final V Leicester. It may be their only avenue into the HC next season.
According to Will Carlings program on Talk Sport the agreement with the International team doesn't come into operation until next season so Wasps can pick a full strength team even though the 6 nations won't have finished.It will be interesting to see if Gatland allows the Os to be full strength.
When we played the rebel Season even though we were playing English second teams by the end CAP was full most weeks. At the moment Trevisso and Calvisano don't have the same appeal. When we played Calvasano 2 seasons ago at CAP we had a NZ legend on our wings. It was the chance to see him play not the opposition who filled CAP
Playing the EDF as a straight knockout competition might give the English the opportunity to field weaker teams in the early rounds but given Wasps league position and the fact that as far as the English are concerned the EDF winners get a HC place I very much doubt Wasps will be under strength in the Semi Final V Leicester. It may be their only avenue into the HC next season.
According to Will Carlings program on Talk Sport the agreement with the International team doesn't come into operation until next season so Wasps can pick a full strength team even though the 6 nations won't have finished.It will be interesting to see if Gatland allows the Os to be full strength.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: S A Brained (IP Logged)
Date: 29/01/2008 11:10
ML with Italians means more EXPENCE and Italy gaining on the field and nothing for us.
What is the point in that?
David Jordan and his lot are bound to go for it!
What is the point in that?
David Jordan and his lot are bound to go for it!
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Blue_Rose (IP Logged)
Date: 11/03/2008 14:20
This seems absolutely ludocris!!
Why after dis-banding the Celtic Warriors are they looking at two overseas teams?i thought it was meant to be a CELTIC LEAGUE?in my opinion Regional rugby should never have been done-BUT i see why it was and we get on with it...surely the better option would be to franchise a new team in Wales and a new team in Scotland?
I agree that a BBC (not SKY!!!) show should be available to show highlights and games of the ML (as well as Guiness Prem).
the cost to travel to Ireland and Scotland is a good £100 odd so imagine if games were in Italy!!!!
There needs to be a shakeup but it needs to be made by proper Rugby fans not these business men....
Why after dis-banding the Celtic Warriors are they looking at two overseas teams?i thought it was meant to be a CELTIC LEAGUE?in my opinion Regional rugby should never have been done-BUT i see why it was and we get on with it...surely the better option would be to franchise a new team in Wales and a new team in Scotland?
I agree that a BBC (not SKY!!!) show should be available to show highlights and games of the ML (as well as Guiness Prem).
the cost to travel to Ireland and Scotland is a good £100 odd so imagine if games were in Italy!!!!
There needs to be a shakeup but it needs to be made by proper Rugby fans not these business men....
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Rocky (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 00:07
Quote:Blue_Rose
surely the better option would be to franchise a new team in Wales and a new team in Scotland?
Where should we put them?
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Blue_Rose (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 09:24
I'd be inclined to put a new welsh team either up North or Re-start the Bridgend area's team? You could also change this silly NQW rule to a NQC(non qualified Celt(lol)) ruling?
And a Scottish side again in Northern parts or re-start Borders?
You could actually have a YOUTH franchise squad where all the top U21 player playing for Premiership clubs could play against the Regional teams to get experience-obviously with a few older heads???
And a Scottish side again in Northern parts or re-start Borders?
You could actually have a YOUTH franchise squad where all the top U21 player playing for Premiership clubs could play against the Regional teams to get experience-obviously with a few older heads???
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Caridiff Boo's (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 12:11
A league without relegation looses something in my mind. A franchise system would have been far better than the current regional one.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Blue_Rose (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 12:29
you look at Ulster who are sitting pretty at the bottom and what have they got to loose?
its not as if they'll miss out on sponsor money next season they can afford not to try.
its not as if they'll miss out on sponsor money next season they can afford not to try.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Rocky (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 14:18
Quote:Blue_Rose
I'd be inclined to put a new welsh team either up North or Re-start the Bridgend area's team? You could also change this silly NQW rule to a NQC(non qualified Celt(lol)) ruling?
And a Scottish side again in Northern parts or re-start Borders?
You could actually have a YOUTH franchise squad where all the top U21 player playing for Premiership clubs could play against the Regional teams to get experience-obviously with a few older heads???
Have a go convincing the SRU to fund the team they shut down last season. The NWQ thing is a a Welsh thing, not a league thing. It'd be up to the WRU and the clubs to change their agreement on the maximum number of NWQ players. Also worth remember it's an agreement, not a law.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Blue_Rose (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 15:26
so therefore they wouldnt have to abbide by the agreement if they didnt want to?
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: ExiledinStaffs (IP Logged)
Date: 12/03/2008 17:00
The aggreement is that if a region decided to get more NWQ players in they would loose a subtantial part of WRU funding. It cannot be law because of equal oportunities any employer - including profesional sports teams - cannot turn down someone for a job based on nationality. The aggreement bypasses this as the WRU are not imposing this as a rule.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: S A Brained (IP Logged)
Date: 13/03/2008 08:22
A two tier British league with the GP and the ML coming together.
Initial places in the two divisions based on Euro performance over the last two seasons. Relegation between top and second division irrespective of nation (So the top league could become just English or just ML.
This way we'd get to test ourselves against Wasps Gloucester, Leicester Bath etc and not Connacht!
Sadly I can't see the English going for it!
Initial places in the two divisions based on Euro performance over the last two seasons. Relegation between top and second division irrespective of nation (So the top league could become just English or just ML.
This way we'd get to test ourselves against Wasps Gloucester, Leicester Bath etc and not Connacht!
Sadly I can't see the English going for it!
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: Cardiff Boo's (IP Logged)
Date: 13/03/2008 10:43
The WRU could not take away cash for a side breaking a rule that wouldn't stand up in court. Plus it's not their money if they dared do this they would have a revolt that would probably see the end of the union.
Re: League Shake Up Planned
Posted by: ExiledinStaffs (IP Logged)
Date: 13/03/2008 12:12
I found this out in the WRU's rules and regulations. Take a look at the WRU website. They don't take money away, they just award less. Although I agree is is legally sketchy.