Welsh finalising stadium plans
By Dragons' Den
October 3 2011
There is one topic that's always current and is the biggest stumbling block for the majority of the Championship teams hoping to take the big step up to the Premiership – a stadium that meets the stringent promotion criteria. We know that ODP is unsuitable but the wait to find out the Exiles' future stadium plans is almost over.
Four wins from five league games, second place in the Championship and a commanding victory over London Scottish in the B&I Cup all point towards the growing possibility that this could be the season in which London Welsh gain promotion. We’re not yet getting carried away with the on-field success but the news that stadium details will be finalised in the very near future is almost taking our excitement to a whole new level!
Shortly before jetting off to the World Cup to be one of TalkSport’s top commentators, John Taylor took a break from packing his socks and memorising the names of all the participating players to speak to the Richmond & Kingston Informer:
‘Welsh chief executive John Taylor said “We are absolutely ready for the Premiership. We have recruited well, and in pre-season we beat Gloucester and lost very narrowly to London Irish.
“But the route to the Premiership is a very difficult one on and off the field, and we are working very hard to put things in place.
“By the end of 2011, when these things have to be done by, we hope to have our own ground in place, involving an interim move and a new stadium in the long term.”
So where will the 1st XV relocate to? The interim move could be to Griffin Park, Loftus Road or The Stoop – all of which have been considered when ODP has previously been unavailable. The long-term plan is more difficult to guess, especially as the article refers to ‘our own ground’. In the past there have been rumours of a planned ground share with London Scottish, possibly at the Richmond Athletic Ground with Richmond moving up the road to our bit of Old Deer Park. The site at Lionel Road intended for Brentford’s new stadium remains undeveloped and has consistently been of interest to the London Welsh Board. An outside bet could be the stadium mentioned on our very own message board – Craven Cottage which may soon be vacated by Fulham FC. One thing is for certain and that’s the distinct lack of empty plots in the Richmond area and that even fewer are suited to building a modern, 10,000+ capacity rugby stadium.
As always the questions outnumber the answers and hopefully Mr Taylor will share more information with London Welsh members during the next three months.
IN OTHER NEWS……
Congratulations to Paddy Power on winning first prize in the recent London Welsh draw and their company name will soon appear on the back of the players’ shorts. The draw master was Epi Taione and he was ably assisted by Lyn Jones – a man who (according to many Ospreys supporters) is very familiar with the use of a tombola!
Dragons’ Den is always intrigued by coincidences, not necessarily the big ones that make the top 15 all-time coincidences lists, but the tiddlers that you still couldn’t make up. So what coincidence occurred during this sponsorship draw? In 2007 Epi was sponsored by the bookmaker to change his name to ‘Paddy Power' for the duration of the Rugby World Cup and even dyed his hair green as part of the deal to generate vital funds for his national team. Paddy Power also sponsored Epi last season. What odds would Irelands’ largest bookmakers have given on Epi pulling their name out of the drum first?!
In only a few short weeks Steve Lewis, the temporary acting-MD, has started to make his mark overseeing the gradual transformation of ODP through the installation of new terracing on the Club House side of the pitch and a new front entrance sign. These two improvements are clearly a step in the right direction and should be applauded.
According to sources within the club, Mr Lewis’ two month stint in charge is being seen as an extra-long ‘job interview’ as, regardless of whether London Welsh gain promotion, John Taylor is expected to step down as MD before the start of the 2012/13 season. The current season is Mr Taylor’s third as Managing Director after Neil Hollinshead appointed him to the role in 2009. If London Welsh are looking for a new MD with appropriate experience in rugby administration then does anyone have a better pedigree than Steve Lewis?
Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: The Dragons\\\' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 03/10/2011 22:03
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 04/10/2011 17:04
"The site at Lionel Road intended for Brentford’s new stadium remains undeveloped and has consistently been of interest to the London Welsh Board."
At what price for the site? Construction costs?
The public transport - Kew Rail Station, the M4, the North Circular (more of a road than the South Circular) plus various bus routes - is, if anything, better than ODP.
But the price for the site and the construction costs? Plus there is no room for any training pitches, and for that presumably the ODP is retained. So a doubling of club houses? Perimeter security with rail lines on two sides out of three should not be a great problem, but a bigger stadium means greater stewarding costs. Turf needs time to settle and I hope nobody suggests palletised turf - I've seen the Millennium stadium this season and it was an embarassment. I don't want to pour a bucket of water, indeed I warm to the possibilities of this site, it would be our site alone, with no sharing with a cricket club, or archery.
So it comes down to money - can it be done? I'm puzzled by "we hope to have our own ground in place, involving an interim move and a new stadium in the long term" I trust this does not mean we leave ODP before the new stadium is signed, sealed and delivered - and under construction. I would want investors not to pull out in the interim season just because for whatever reason things do not go perfectly.
At what price for the site? Construction costs?
The public transport - Kew Rail Station, the M4, the North Circular (more of a road than the South Circular) plus various bus routes - is, if anything, better than ODP.
But the price for the site and the construction costs? Plus there is no room for any training pitches, and for that presumably the ODP is retained. So a doubling of club houses? Perimeter security with rail lines on two sides out of three should not be a great problem, but a bigger stadium means greater stewarding costs. Turf needs time to settle and I hope nobody suggests palletised turf - I've seen the Millennium stadium this season and it was an embarassment. I don't want to pour a bucket of water, indeed I warm to the possibilities of this site, it would be our site alone, with no sharing with a cricket club, or archery.
So it comes down to money - can it be done? I'm puzzled by "we hope to have our own ground in place, involving an interim move and a new stadium in the long term" I trust this does not mean we leave ODP before the new stadium is signed, sealed and delivered - and under construction. I would want investors not to pull out in the interim season just because for whatever reason things do not go perfectly.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: 123paul (IP Logged)
Date: 04/10/2011 20:06
How strange this thread starts on the day Chelsea start buying fans shares back thus enabling a move from Stamford Bridge possible. However I'm not sure that their ground will be big enough for us in the years to come
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 05/10/2011 11:17
Start to wonder if it would have been more appropriate had this shoe shop on Kings Road won first prize!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 05/10/2011 11:39
Quote:nld
Start to wonder if it would have been more appropriate had this shoe shop on Kings Road won first prize!
The paint still not dry...?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 05/10/2011 11:56
Quote:Mark W-JQuote:nld
Start to wonder if it would have been more appropriate had this shoe shop on Kings Road won first prize!
The paint still not dry...?
Just one of my favourite shop names from the days when I worked in that part of town.
No painting today but I'll be stripping a bit later.....
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: adge1 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/10/2011 13:12
SARACENS TO PLAY HEINEKEN CUP TIE IN CAPE TOWN
There's the answer - once promotion is achieved we go on a world tour and play all our home games at various stop off points around the world.....Green Bay, Candlestick Park, Kensington Oval, Maracana, Tierra del Fuego, Port Stanley ...
There's the answer - once promotion is achieved we go on a world tour and play all our home games at various stop off points around the world.....Green Bay, Candlestick Park, Kensington Oval, Maracana, Tierra del Fuego, Port Stanley ...
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Big Dave (IP Logged)
Date: 06/10/2011 15:48
Good to see teams in this league with drive and ambition, and a club like LW should be aspiring to be the best that it can.
However, I do have a number of concerns about the realism of these particular plans. At the moment Welsh's average attendance is (I think) approx 800. Compare this to say, Bristol's 4,300 and you have to ask whether Welsh will be able to get the paying punters to make Premiership rugby a sensible option. Now, you could say that the very fact of premiership rugby will bring them in, but I don't see that this will bring in many then perhaps an extra few hundred, alongside larger numbers of away fans.
Is it more sensible to look to compete in the upper echelons of the Championship for a few more seasons and build a greater following, perhaps in a new stadium which can take more people and present more opportunities for revenue than ODP, is the theory one of "build it and they will come"? The latter seems very risky.
I'd be very interested to know what Welsh fans think.
However, I do have a number of concerns about the realism of these particular plans. At the moment Welsh's average attendance is (I think) approx 800. Compare this to say, Bristol's 4,300 and you have to ask whether Welsh will be able to get the paying punters to make Premiership rugby a sensible option. Now, you could say that the very fact of premiership rugby will bring them in, but I don't see that this will bring in many then perhaps an extra few hundred, alongside larger numbers of away fans.
Is it more sensible to look to compete in the upper echelons of the Championship for a few more seasons and build a greater following, perhaps in a new stadium which can take more people and present more opportunities for revenue than ODP, is the theory one of "build it and they will come"? The latter seems very risky.
I'd be very interested to know what Welsh fans think.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Crug Mawr (IP Logged)
Date: 06/10/2011 16:19
The How Galling thread captures the thoughts of the posters on here on attendances at ODP.
Out of interest Big Dave did you spend any time in Lancaster in the 1980's (the University not the prison)?
Out of interest Big Dave did you spend any time in Lancaster in the 1980's (the University not the prison)?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Big Dave (IP Logged)
Date: 06/10/2011 18:11
No, in the 1980s I was in a primary school in the old county of Avon, which probably gives you a clue as to my allegiance.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ian H (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 09:33
Big Dave,
Unless there's a backer out there with very deep pockets that the managements are keeping very much under wraps, then a new stadium of the sort required to fund a premiership team is the juciest pie possible at stratospheric heights.....
Unless there's a backer out there with very deep pockets that the managements are keeping very much under wraps, then a new stadium of the sort required to fund a premiership team is the juciest pie possible at stratospheric heights.....
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 10:01
If we can (quickly) build a stadium along the lines of Exeter's conference centre/rugby ground and near enough fill it each game then Premiership may be a reality. Anything else that requires spending at the current levels with no new external income is a financial timebomb that could go off at moment. It may be weeks, months or years but relying on the incredible generosity of a few individuals is so dangerous.
At the crowd numbers seen this season our rugby is being subsidised to the tune of £100 per spectator per match!
At the crowd numbers seen this season our rugby is being subsidised to the tune of £100 per spectator per match!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: FamilyGuy (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 13:18
Are you all mad? LW is a fine club with a long tradition of excellent, expansive play and a warm welcome at ODP. It is still in London (just) but its playing links with Wales are becoming ever more tenuous. It will never be able to sustain itself in the Premiership.
I am not Welsh but am a long-standing member and have always enjoyed the Welsh flavour that is still massively evident off the pitch. That flavour is not so aggressively nationalistic as at L Irish, and not so obviously prosperous as at L Scottish. In particular the Irish culture, at least over the last 20-30 years, has given LI a popular and profitable profile. Welsh-ness just isn't the same - how many Welsh pubs are there in Torremolinos for example?
Why don't we simply enjoy the fact that, even with our limited resources, we are still able to punch well above our weight whilst retaining some of that traditional rugby fun & friendship?
I don't want to watch Premiership rugby in a soulless stadium; LW is much more special than that.
I am not Welsh but am a long-standing member and have always enjoyed the Welsh flavour that is still massively evident off the pitch. That flavour is not so aggressively nationalistic as at L Irish, and not so obviously prosperous as at L Scottish. In particular the Irish culture, at least over the last 20-30 years, has given LI a popular and profitable profile. Welsh-ness just isn't the same - how many Welsh pubs are there in Torremolinos for example?
Why don't we simply enjoy the fact that, even with our limited resources, we are still able to punch well above our weight whilst retaining some of that traditional rugby fun & friendship?
I don't want to watch Premiership rugby in a soulless stadium; LW is much more special than that.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 15:02
Quote:FamilyGuy
Are you all mad? LW is a fine club with a long tradition of excellent, expansive play and a warm welcome at ODP. It is still in London (just) but its playing links with Wales are becoming ever more tenuous. It will never be able to sustain itself in the Premiership.
I am not Welsh but am a long-standing member and have always enjoyed the Welsh flavour that is still massively evident off the pitch. That flavour is not so aggressively nationalistic as at L Irish, and not so obviously prosperous as at L Scottish. In particular the Irish culture, at least over the last 20-30 years, has given LI a popular and profitable profile. Welsh-ness just isn't the same - how many Welsh pubs are there in Torremolinos for example?
Why don't we simply enjoy the fact that, even with our limited resources, we are still able to punch well above our weight whilst retaining some of that traditional rugby fun & friendship?
I don't want to watch Premiership rugby in a soulless stadium; LW is much more special than that.
Agree with you on every point other than 'punching above our weight'. The playing budget is one of the highest, if not the highest, in the Championship.
The Board seem hell-bent on going for promotion. As we can't influence that decision then our only hope is that they do it in a sustainable and not a suicidal way.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ian H (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 16:16
nld - can't believe your comments about building a stadium quickly. I assume you're a long standing member - what do your eyes tell you about the spectator situation every home Saturday.
Thank God for a dose of realism from Family Guy.
Thank God for a dose of realism from Family Guy.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 16:48
My comments are not in support of a promotion push but to say that if that is what the club management really want to do then they need a stadium that creates revenue in its own right. Exeter have a conference centre that supports a rugby team and that is the only way forward that may be viable if expenditure continues at this rate.
Read it again and also in conjunction with my previous postings on the subject. I think my views on this particular matter have been quite clear!
Read it again and also in conjunction with my previous postings on the subject. I think my views on this particular matter have been quite clear!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ian H (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 16:59
I think we all realise that what's required to support a premiership is a a guaranateed revenue stream, but to think we can secure one with the current set up, and no individual with deep pockets, is sadly deluded
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 17:06
And that's why I don't believe it is really possible and have said so many, many times on here!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Hoopsy (IP Logged)
Date: 07/10/2011 23:41
Interesting thread guys....You know what ? Im actually really enjoying watching Bristol in the Championship. Maybe if there was more funding available the profile of the Championship could be raised and it might stop this "race" for Premiership rugby and allow teams to build steadily toward the promised land. The standard of rugby has certainly improved greatly over the years......Now lets just sort out the ridiculous play off situation and find a better format (2nd in the Champ v 2nd bottom in the Prem) ? for a second promotion / relegation spot ? and we could have a strong Prem. backed by a strong Championship. Also relegation from the Premiership may not be so devastating. I worry about Bristol surviving another excursion in The Prem. and we are averaging 4200 at the moment and have the possibility of a shiny new stadium soon.... I fear for some other clubs who have Prem aspirations. Can be devastating when it goes wrong (Bristol last year / Leeds this year).
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: danfc (IP Logged)
Date: 08/10/2011 22:51
Appears Fulham are now staying at craven cottage so that rumour / wish can be put to bed. I hope we just stay at ODP, we could move to the 2nd pitch, move the tennis courts to the current pitch and build a new main stand / facilities on the current club house and tennis courts. We'ed only need a permanant main stand so costs would be resonably low. A covered terrace opposite and behind the posts could be simple / temporary structures added to meet the rules should we go up.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2011 00:54
Just that little matter of planning permission, the local residents and the Crown Estate. Apart from that, easy-peasy, I don't think.
Lionel Road is an option for a progressive Doncaster-style erection of a new main ground, with ODP retained for the amateurs etc. The money side is a nightmare, as the site value already reflects hope value (hotel etc), but no worse nightmare than some Premiership clubs quietly face. But it is not a runner unless we are fairly sure promotion is on the cards seriously.
So far we have beaten all the bottom 6 in the Championship (Scottish in a B&I game) and lost but with a losing bonus point to Bedford in 6th place currently. The acid test will be when we face the top 5, beginning with Bristol next weekend.
Lionel Road is an option for a progressive Doncaster-style erection of a new main ground, with ODP retained for the amateurs etc. The money side is a nightmare, as the site value already reflects hope value (hotel etc), but no worse nightmare than some Premiership clubs quietly face. But it is not a runner unless we are fairly sure promotion is on the cards seriously.
So far we have beaten all the bottom 6 in the Championship (Scottish in a B&I game) and lost but with a losing bonus point to Bedford in 6th place currently. The acid test will be when we face the top 5, beginning with Bristol next weekend.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: CwmRheidol (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2011 10:56
Just that little matter of planning permission, the local residents and the Crown Estate. Apart from that, easy-peasy, I don't think.
Temporary permission less of a problem, and he locals will have little to complain about, as in the past we have attracted large crowds, and what about the hospitality when England play at home. As far as what you can see from the road, there are trees on the Kew road side which block the view anyway. I'd go for that option
Temporary permission less of a problem, and he locals will have little to complain about, as in the past we have attracted large crowds, and what about the hospitality when England play at home. As far as what you can see from the road, there are trees on the Kew road side which block the view anyway. I'd go for that option
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: RIL1 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2011 14:01
P35 of today's The Rugby Paper - talking about AFC Wimbledon's ground in Kingston as a possible option - only 5500 capacity but ripe for development
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 09:14
Olympic stadium available again.
£2m pa plus (presumably) matchday costs!
£2m pa plus (presumably) matchday costs!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: jjones1131 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 17:52
You beat me to that, Nigel - especially after the Rugby Paper reported the Board (I thought it was just 2 people, 1 investor and 1 non) is ready to fund the move to a stadium fit for the Premiership. I vore for the Olympic stadium too. Nothing like a good facility to keep everyone happy.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 18:43
Withdrawn. PADDYTAF
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:10:11:18:53:21 by paddytaf.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:10:11:18:53:21 by paddytaf.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 19:40
But would the Olympic Stadium pass the Premier Rugby audit?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 20:20
Quote:paddytaf
Withdrawn. PADDYTAF
Words never before seen in the same sentence!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 20:24
Quote:Mark W-J
But would the Olympic Stadium pass the Premier Rugby audit?
Minimum distances between flames?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2011 23:28
The problem with the Olympic stadium is that you won't get the roar of the greasepaint and the smell of the crowd. The pitch would be too damn far away. Dreadful overhead costs.
Our focus should be in South West London, where a good % of current supporters are, not sharing with a cricket club, good transport links, and handy for the M4 for the occasional visitor - if only! - from Wales.
If we top the table at the end of this season, I'm sure we can come to temporary terms with Brentford for one season, and have something built at Lionel Road for the next. Money will follow us into the Premiership, and crowds will increase (not by tens of thousands) too. Lionel Road could be quite cosy. If you build it, they will come (and I don't mean the men in white coats).
Our focus should be in South West London, where a good % of current supporters are, not sharing with a cricket club, good transport links, and handy for the M4 for the occasional visitor - if only! - from Wales.
If we top the table at the end of this season, I'm sure we can come to temporary terms with Brentford for one season, and have something built at Lionel Road for the next. Money will follow us into the Premiership, and crowds will increase (not by tens of thousands) too. Lionel Road could be quite cosy. If you build it, they will come (and I don't mean the men in white coats).
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2011 08:09
Quote:jjones1131
You beat me to that, Nigel - especially after the Rugby Paper reported the Board (I thought it was just 2 people, 1 investor and 1 non) is ready to fund the move to a stadium fit for the Premiership. I vore for the Olympic stadium too. Nothing like a good facility to keep everyone happy.
.....and why do we only hear these important bits of information via snippets in the press and never through official communications with the membership?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2011 08:28
Quote:nld
.....and why do we only hear these important bits of information via snippets in the press and never through official communications with the membership?
It was Martyn Thomas, in the committee room, with the brown envelope.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Dragons' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 29/12/2011 09:24
John Taylor makes statement on future plans. The Yorkshire Post(!) has the exclusive:
[www.yorkshirepost.co.uk]
The Exiles have been in exploratory discussions to relax the March 31 deadline for fear that it can lead to financial ruin for clubs chasing the dream.
Welsh chief executive John Taylor said: “What we have done is inform the RFU we are working on a plan that we hope by March 31 will satisfy their minimal requirement and that we do want to be considered for promotion.”
[www.yorkshirepost.co.uk]
The Exiles have been in exploratory discussions to relax the March 31 deadline for fear that it can lead to financial ruin for clubs chasing the dream.
Welsh chief executive John Taylor said: “What we have done is inform the RFU we are working on a plan that we hope by March 31 will satisfy their minimal requirement and that we do want to be considered for promotion.”
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ian H (IP Logged)
Date: 29/12/2011 09:56
Hang on...John Taylor, CEO of London Welsh, and the Yorkshire Post gets an exclusive ???? WTF ??
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Dragons' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 29/12/2011 10:30
Minimum standards for 2011/12 here
Plus questionnaires that had to be return by 15/11/2011 for 2012/13 season:
Here & Here
Plus questionnaires that had to be return by 15/11/2011 for 2012/13 season:
Here & Here
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 29/12/2011 14:22
No 60cm rule any more?
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 29/12/2011 17:11
Quote:DanFW3
No 60cm rule any more?
That's a shame. Better toilet facilities was the only positive I could see from getting promotion!
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: TC08 (IP Logged)
Date: 30/12/2011 05:58
Quote:nldQuote:DanFW3
No 60cm rule any more?
That's a shame. Better toilet facilities was the only positive I could see from getting promotion!
Yes, it's still there (applicable to trough urinals, when calculating the provision compared to the requirements based on ground capacity).
Whilst maybe quibbling about some of the detailed mandatory requirements (eg the RFU might have been embarrassed to have to submit to an audit, requiring a CEO or a detailed job description, a couple of months back), the vast majority of the requirements in the 60 pages are reasonable for a professional club to have to meet.
And the 2 key ones are :
- primacy of tenure (which has to be satisfied by a written agreement, subject only to a caveat for achieving promotion; can be achieved over 2 grounds, but it's difficult to see how that really helps, if both other grounds are shared with a similar winter sports club)
- minimum 10,000 capacity, inc 3,500 seated (and 2,500 covered)
For the first time, I've seen provisions for a play-off (laughably one-sided, considering the relative financial strengths and the effects of transfer deadlines), between any of the 3 current Prem clubs who don't satisfy the primacy of tenure rule (Wasps, Saracens and Ldn Irish) and the "winning" Championship club if:
- one of the 3 Prem clubs comes bottom and
- the Championship club doesn't meet the primacy requirements
Given that Leeds and Sale weren't mentioned in terms of failing the primacy of tenure requirements, it must be possible to ground share and still meet them. I'd be keen to see how!
Many thanks for posting these, and the associated questionnaires. It was lucky I couldn't sleep tonight!
Overall, having campaigned for 3 years to see these, and becoming convinced that they weren't being published because they contained some hitherto unknown nuclear condition, I can't see much that surprises me here, so I really can't see the motivation for keeping these secret from the paying public.
There's some material here for a cartel conspiracist such as me, but it's not as strong as I'd hoped.
These are the requirements for the 2011/12 season (ie the last one) and the preamble says that they are revised annually in the light of experience, so the current year's ones might be slightly different from these.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 30/12/2011 10:52
So the plan is to do as little as possible towards the criteria until promotion is achieved? It took Exeter about 10 years to do what LW want to do in 10 weeks. The only winners will be the LW and RFU lawyers.
The stadium requirement is only one part of it, there are marketing, commercial and community plans that have to be proved. Exeter had to make a second presentation to show that had a strong enough commercial and marketing plan in place and we are years and years behind then on that count. As for any community engagement.......
All sounds a very suicidal approach and one without any real understanding of what is required to be a successful Premiership club.
The stadium requirement is only one part of it, there are marketing, commercial and community plans that have to be proved. Exeter had to make a second presentation to show that had a strong enough commercial and marketing plan in place and we are years and years behind then on that count. As for any community engagement.......
All sounds a very suicidal approach and one without any real understanding of what is required to be a successful Premiership club.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 30/12/2011 17:06
For heavens sake can't we put this stupid idea of trying to get in to the bl++dy Premiership to bed once and for all. I don't mind where or what division LONDON WELSH play in (it can be in LONDON 3 North for all i care) i will still support them as i always have done. This idea of Premiership rugby will be without doubt the death nail of this wonderful club. PADDYTAF. 
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: FamilyGuy (IP Logged)
Date: 30/12/2011 22:37
PaddyTaff
You're not often right but this time you are. LW & ODP are indissoluble.
Premiership rugby is currently unsustainable - though great strides are being made - and I prefer our sort. "Benevolent" owners don't seem quite to be so.
Oh, and by the way, I suspect Richmond CC will have a view on summer rugby.
You're not often right but this time you are. LW & ODP are indissoluble.
Premiership rugby is currently unsustainable - though great strides are being made - and I prefer our sort. "Benevolent" owners don't seem quite to be so.
Oh, and by the way, I suspect Richmond CC will have a view on summer rugby.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ian H (IP Logged)
Date: 31/12/2011 17:38
I suspect after the last two results, creating or finding premiership standard facilities is now purely hypothetical..
Guys,
I've only been gone a couple of months - what's gone wrong ???
Guys,
I've only been gone a couple of months - what's gone wrong ???
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: Ron bacardi (IP Logged)
Date: 31/12/2011 17:59
Ref: thread entitled' Just when you thought it couldn't get worse'.
'PREMIERSHIP? YOU'RE HAVING A LAUGH'
'PREMIERSHIP? YOU'RE HAVING A LAUGH'
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2012 13:15
In The Rugby Paper today our MD JT is talking about a Modular Stadium with an 8,000 capacity. This statement is completely laughable. Yesterday there were four matches in the Championship Plymouth had 1,800 Nottingham had 2,100 Esher had 1,640 and LONDON WELSH were bottom of the pile with a meagre 900. Where oh where are we going to find 8,000. That wouldn't happen even if we paid them to come and watch, our crowds were bigger when we were in division five south. PADDYTAF.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 01/01/2012 13:54
I didn't get TRP today but was sent a text with the following extracts from the article:
The Rugby Paper (page 2) John Taylor says that long term, London Welsh remain committed to entering into a partnership with Brentford FC over developing a new community stadium near Kew.
Kingsmeadows, the home of AFC Wimbledon has also be mooted as a potential site. But in the short term, Taylor believes a modular stadium would provide an answer. He added: "We commissioned a report and we have two sites where we could build a modular stadium over the summer months. We could build an 8,000 capacity stadium with, if necessary, the ability to extend that in future."
Hopefully we will get more details on the official website after this bank holiday weekend and supporters won't be left relying on quotes in TRP and the Yorkshire Post.
My understanding is that Brentford FC and their developers have completely given up on the Lionel Road plan so that must be a very long term (and expensive) project that LW are considering. Having watched the battles that Pirates and Saracens have gone through (and still not won) the chances of having a modular 8,000 seat stadium in place by next Sept must be very close to zero.
The Rugby Paper (page 2) John Taylor says that long term, London Welsh remain committed to entering into a partnership with Brentford FC over developing a new community stadium near Kew.
Kingsmeadows, the home of AFC Wimbledon has also be mooted as a potential site. But in the short term, Taylor believes a modular stadium would provide an answer. He added: "We commissioned a report and we have two sites where we could build a modular stadium over the summer months. We could build an 8,000 capacity stadium with, if necessary, the ability to extend that in future."
Hopefully we will get more details on the official website after this bank holiday weekend and supporters won't be left relying on quotes in TRP and the Yorkshire Post.
My understanding is that Brentford FC and their developers have completely given up on the Lionel Road plan so that must be a very long term (and expensive) project that LW are considering. Having watched the battles that Pirates and Saracens have gone through (and still not won) the chances of having a modular 8,000 seat stadium in place by next Sept must be very close to zero.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: serge (IP Logged)
Date: 05/01/2012 20:56
Going back to the previous point, you can ground share if you have primacy of tenure. Sale (or Sales parent company) own their ground, so can provide primacy of tenure. Leeds RU needs primacy to get promoted, Leeds Rhinos RL dont, so Leeds RU have it.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: TC08 (IP Logged)
Date: 05/01/2012 23:13
Quote:serge
Going back to the previous point, you can ground share if you have primacy of tenure. Sale (or Sales parent company) own their ground, so can provide primacy of tenure. Leeds RU needs primacy to get promoted, Leeds Rhinos RL dont, so Leeds RU have it.
Ahh, thanks. That makes sense. I now understand.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: prawn cocktail (IP Logged)
Date: 12/01/2012 00:13
Leeds Carnegie and Leeds Rhinos are both owned by the gentleman that owns Headingley Stadium- therefore primacy of tenure is not a problem.
Re: Welsh finalising stadium plans
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 12/01/2012 11:42
Does that follow? The key essence of primacy of tenure is that the RFU club can have its fixture at any time slot within the specified time frame on the days specified. If an RL and RU club share a site - both owned by the same owner as the site (on the face of it Paul Caddick in the case of Leeds, though the size of the debenture secured may mean effective ownership is not quite so simple), can the RU club ALWAYS kick the RL club out of the way to meet the Premiership (i.e. TV company) scheduling requirements?
I see the point serge is making, that in normal circumstances the RL club will always cede to the RU club if the latter is in or fighting to be in the Premiership and the former is not, but that is possibly just a one-year situation (not this season probably). What happens if the RL club also gets promoted to or is in line for promotion to the top tier? Where's the primacy of tenure then?
I only make these points to illustrate that primacy of tenure can be a difficult condition to satisfy.
I see the point serge is making, that in normal circumstances the RL club will always cede to the RU club if the latter is in or fighting to be in the Premiership and the former is not, but that is possibly just a one-year situation (not this season probably). What happens if the RL club also gets promoted to or is in line for promotion to the top tier? Where's the primacy of tenure then?
I only make these points to illustrate that primacy of tenure can be a difficult condition to satisfy.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.