B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
By Dragons' Den
December 15 2011
The weekend before Christmas and London Welsh may have to rely on some seasonal goodwill from Leinster if they are to qualify for the quarter-finals of the B&I Cup. With Cross Keys the only team to already have secured their place in the next round there is everything to play for..
The confusing format of the British and Irish Cup continues with this weekend's fixtures set to decide the other seven quarter-finalists. The top placed team in each Pool progress to the next stage together with the two best runners-up. Cross Keys have an clear lead in Pool 2 and Moseley would need an very unlikely set of circumstances to stop Pirates securing top spot in Pool 1. The other Pools remain wide open.
As for London Welsh, a win on Sunday (ideally with a bonus point) at Leinster will probaly necessary if we are to have a chance to move through to the next round, either a Pool winners or as one of the two best runners-up. Although Pool leaders Llanelli have a difficult trip to Bedford they travel there with a one point lead over second-placed Welsh and have a far superior points difference. Leinster are unbeated in this phase of the competition with wins over Esher (32-18), Melrose (42-20) and Llanelli (19-13) putting them four points clear of Bedford in Pool 3.
The Cup is normally an opportunity to chop and change the match-day squad and make a raft of changes but, as has been commented on this message board, this is something that we have seen week in, week out at London Welsh so far this season. Can Lyn Jones top the 12 changes he made for the team to face Nottingham last weekend? Dragons' Den wouldn't be surprised if he managed it!
Remaining Fixtures
Saturday:
Rotherham Titans v Ulster, (13:30)
Doncaster v Swansea, (14:00)
Moseley v Munster, (14:00)
Aberavon v Esher, (14:30)
Ayr v Bristol, (14:30)
Bedford v Llanelli, (15:00)
Currie v Nottingham, (15:00)
London Scottish v Melrose, (15:00)
Neath v Plymouth Albion, (15:00)
Pontypridd v Leeds Carnegie, (18:30)
Sunday:
Sunday:
Cornish Pirates v Cross Keys, (14:00)
Leinster v London Welsh, (14:30)
B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: The Dragons\\\' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 15/12/2011 10:01
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Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Crug Mawr (IP Logged)
Date: 15/12/2011 11:06
This has the potential to be a very testing encounter.
Last week Llanelli put out a strong looking team against Leinster and struggled up front.
Last week Llanelli put out a strong looking team against Leinster and struggled up front.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 11:32
Only six changes:
London Welsh: 15. Edd Thrower, 14. Will Hurrell, 13. James Lewis, 12. Seb Jewell, 11. Liam Gibson, 10. Alex Davies, 9. Jack Moates, 1. Tom French, 2. Nathan Morris, 3. Billy Moss, 4. Gary Johnson, 5. Matt Corker, 6. Ed Siggery 7. Michael Hills, 8. Ed Jackson ©.
Replacements: 16. Dan George, 17. Guillermo Roan, 18. Adam Brown, 19. Ben Russell, 20. Martin Purdy, 21. Sam Egerton, 22. Ashley Smith.
London Welsh: 15. Edd Thrower, 14. Will Hurrell, 13. James Lewis, 12. Seb Jewell, 11. Liam Gibson, 10. Alex Davies, 9. Jack Moates, 1. Tom French, 2. Nathan Morris, 3. Billy Moss, 4. Gary Johnson, 5. Matt Corker, 6. Ed Siggery 7. Michael Hills, 8. Ed Jackson ©.
Replacements: 16. Dan George, 17. Guillermo Roan, 18. Adam Brown, 19. Ben Russell, 20. Martin Purdy, 21. Sam Egerton, 22. Ashley Smith.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 12:09
I think changes were always going to be minimal given that we put out a shadow team at Nottingham - it's unlikely that even Lyn would pick his 1st XV in the cup having rested most of them at Nottingham.
Two locks and only two backs on the bench, including Oxford University's 20 year old scrum-half.
Two locks and only two backs on the bench, including Oxford University's 20 year old scrum-half.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 12:17
By all reports, the weather this weekend could be absolutely vile - though, who knows, possibly improved by Sunday - so I wish them well from the comforts of central heating. A win is always possible if everything clicks. And if not "we can now concentrate on the league" as they say.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 12:23
LEINSTER ‘A’:
15: David Kearney, 14: Andrew Conway, 13: Brendan Macken, 12: Colm O’Shea, 11: Fionn Carr, 10: Noel Reid, 9: John Cooney
1: Jack McGrath CAPTAIN, 2: Aaron Dundon, 3: Jamie Hagan, 4: Neilus Keogh, 5: Mark Flanagan, 6: Ben Marshall, 7: Jordi Murphy, 8: Leo Auva’a
REPLACEMENTS: 16: Tom Sexton, 17: Jack O’Connell, 18: Jordan Coghlan, 19: Conor Gilsenan, 20: Luke McGrath, 21: Cathal Marsh, 22: Darren Hudson
15: David Kearney, 14: Andrew Conway, 13: Brendan Macken, 12: Colm O’Shea, 11: Fionn Carr, 10: Noel Reid, 9: John Cooney
1: Jack McGrath CAPTAIN, 2: Aaron Dundon, 3: Jamie Hagan, 4: Neilus Keogh, 5: Mark Flanagan, 6: Ben Marshall, 7: Jordi Murphy, 8: Leo Auva’a
REPLACEMENTS: 16: Tom Sexton, 17: Jack O’Connell, 18: Jordan Coghlan, 19: Conor Gilsenan, 20: Luke McGrath, 21: Cathal Marsh, 22: Darren Hudson
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: dottigirl (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 16:06
According to 'Cormac' on another site:
'The vast majority of that side are under 25 and while some would have decent Pro12/ML experience, you could probably count their combined HEC appearances on one hand.
10 of the starting 15 have full contracts with Leinster, 4 are in the Academy (O'Shea, Reid, Marshall and Murphy) and one is a club player (Keogh) drafted in. The bench has one senior squad player (Sexton - who's never started for the first team), five academy players and one sub-academy player (Marsh).
Most of the squad are between 18 and 22 years old.'
Someone else said that they've seen Kearney and Carr playing for the full Leinster team. Sounds like it's going to be quite a test.
Have fun, anyone who has braved the journey. I'm currently listening to the wind howl along the Mid Wales coast.
'The vast majority of that side are under 25 and while some would have decent Pro12/ML experience, you could probably count their combined HEC appearances on one hand.
10 of the starting 15 have full contracts with Leinster, 4 are in the Academy (O'Shea, Reid, Marshall and Murphy) and one is a club player (Keogh) drafted in. The bench has one senior squad player (Sexton - who's never started for the first team), five academy players and one sub-academy player (Marsh).
Most of the squad are between 18 and 22 years old.'
Someone else said that they've seen Kearney and Carr playing for the full Leinster team. Sounds like it's going to be quite a test.
Have fun, anyone who has braved the journey. I'm currently listening to the wind howl along the Mid Wales coast.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 16:28
Quote:Mark W-J
I think changes were always going to be minimal given that we put out a shadow team at Nottingham - it's unlikely that even Lyn would pick his 1st XV in the cup having rested most of them at Nottingham.
Two locks and only two backs on the bench, including Oxford University's 20 year old scrum-half.
But what is his 1st XV?!
There's a few in that team that I would consider first choice or very close to being so, especially 4 of the back 6, but then also some glaring weaknesses.
It's going to be a difficult game to win.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 16:38
Are they your first choice or what you imagine would be Lyn's first choice? As I suggested on another thread, I think there are big differences between the two.
I'm a big fan of both Davies and Jewell, but not sure that I've seen them at 10 and 12 in the same starting line-up before. I'd much rather that we field experimental combinations in a Mickey Mouse cup game than an important league fixture, but I can see Lyn fielding two 'mixed' sides against Esher and Moseley, with most of the players missing from Sunday's squad returning on Boxing Day.
I'm a big fan of both Davies and Jewell, but not sure that I've seen them at 10 and 12 in the same starting line-up before. I'd much rather that we field experimental combinations in a Mickey Mouse cup game than an important league fixture, but I can see Lyn fielding two 'mixed' sides against Esher and Moseley, with most of the players missing from Sunday's squad returning on Boxing Day.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 17:08
My first choices. I couldn't even begin to guess what his first choice team is.
I wouldn't describe this team as any more experimental than we've seen in quite a few of the league games. If the players are content with the constant squad rotation then I suppose that is all that matters.
I wouldn't describe this team as any more experimental than we've seen in quite a few of the league games. If the players are content with the constant squad rotation then I suppose that is all that matters.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Crug Mawr (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 17:54
For Leinster the name that stands out here for me is Fionn Carr. Superb last season when at Connacht and has looked good this season too a major attacking threat.
I think the back row is pretty decent, although inexperienced both Murphy and Auva'a acquitted themselves well in a Rabo 12 game I saw earlier this season.
I think the back row is pretty decent, although inexperienced both Murphy and Auva'a acquitted themselves well in a Rabo 12 game I saw earlier this season.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Crug Mawr (IP Logged)
Date: 16/12/2011 18:04
[quote nld]My first choices. I couldn't even begin to guess what his first choice team is.quote]
I tend to agree. It is far from clear what Lyn's preferred starting 15 would be. The extent to which injurues may e affecting selection is unknown.
Given the indications were that the last 'meet the manager'evening was considered a success and there were plans to run more of these I hope there will be another such event early in the New Year.
I tend to agree. It is far from clear what Lyn's preferred starting 15 would be. The extent to which injurues may e affecting selection is unknown.
Given the indications were that the last 'meet the manager'evening was considered a success and there were plans to run more of these I hope there will be another such event early in the New Year.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 17/12/2011 14:49
Crug Mawr I think i'm correct in saying that there is another meet the Coach Q&A on Thursday 19th January 2012. PADDYTAF
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 17/12/2011 22:02
An interesting turn-up - Bedford having lost their match, leaves Leinster top of their group even without tomorrow's match. So maybe they won't "turn up" being one of 5 sides already through. The question is, how much do we really, really want to progress to the next stage? I think we really do, but not to the extent of breaking any limb on frozen ground.
[news.bbc.co.uk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:12:17:22:03:15 by DanFW3.
[news.bbc.co.uk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:12:17:22:03:15 by DanFW3.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Dragons' Den (IP Logged)
Date: 17/12/2011 22:15
After Llanelli's 25-25 draw at Bedford a win against Leinster is the only way that London Welsh can make it through to the quarter-finals. If our calculations and understanding of the competition rules are correct then a win would almost certainly mean a home quarter-final.
Tomorrow's challenge was looking even more difficult when Llanelli were leading Bedford 25-18 in stoppage time. This would have left Welsh requiring a bonus point victory at Donnybrook but a last minute try and conversion certainly did us a favour even if it wasn't enough to keep Bedford in the competition.
Pirates, Cross Keys, Leinster, Pontypridd and Ulster are all confirmed as quarter-finalists by winning their pools. Nottingham and Munster take the two places allocated to the best runners-up.
Updated table:
Results (according to postings on www.rolling-maul.com):
Aberavon 40-14 Esher
Ayr 16-14 Bristol
Bedford 25-25 Llanelli
Currie 16-23 Nottingham
Doncaster 16-20 Swansea
London Scottish 28-12 Melrose
Moseley 0-29 Munster
Neath 6-24 Plymouth Albion
Pontypridd 18-7 Leeds
Rotherham Titans 24-31 UlsterUlster
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:12:18:09:31:45 by Dragons' Den.
Tomorrow's challenge was looking even more difficult when Llanelli were leading Bedford 25-18 in stoppage time. This would have left Welsh requiring a bonus point victory at Donnybrook but a last minute try and conversion certainly did us a favour even if it wasn't enough to keep Bedford in the competition.
Pirates, Cross Keys, Leinster, Pontypridd and Ulster are all confirmed as quarter-finalists by winning their pools. Nottingham and Munster take the two places allocated to the best runners-up.
Updated table:
Results (according to postings on www.rolling-maul.com):
Aberavon 40-14 Esher
Ayr 16-14 Bristol
Bedford 25-25 Llanelli
Currie 16-23 Nottingham
Doncaster 16-20 Swansea
London Scottish 28-12 Melrose
Moseley 0-29 Munster
Neath 6-24 Plymouth Albion
Pontypridd 18-7 Leeds
Rotherham Titans 24-31 UlsterUlster
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:12:18:09:31:45 by Dragons' Den.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 18/12/2011 16:20
Merry Christmas, cup is over.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 18/12/2011 17:04
Apologies for thinking Bedford lost when they drew, though I was right it left Leinster top of the group. The BBC teletext does not bother to show B&I cup group tables - useless! Likewise the BBC website, and the RFU as of this moment does not yet report this match (Leinster v Welsh) result. So this cup sinks bank into its misty bog, unmourned for another year.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 18/12/2011 19:36
A disappointing cup run. Bedford were gifted a last minute win, Aberavon should have been a easy 5 points but we made it a difficult 4 and a draw against an inexperienced Leinster A. The cup may not have been a priority this season but if you are going to incur the costs of a trip to Ireland* then you should be aiming for a home q-f to generate a bit of extra income.
Next two league games should be fairly gentle run outs for the players before the challenges of Rotherham and Bristol. Is it too much to hope that we start seeing a settled xv taking to the pitch by then?
*Not sure if the RFU funded the away travel costs this year, anyone know?
Next two league games should be fairly gentle run outs for the players before the challenges of Rotherham and Bristol. Is it too much to hope that we start seeing a settled xv taking to the pitch by then?
*Not sure if the RFU funded the away travel costs this year, anyone know?
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 18/12/2011 19:48
The next two games might be gentle run outs but i think both Esher & Moseley will give LONDON WELSH a very tough contest. If we take either of these teams for granted then we will most certainly come off second best. PADDYTAF.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: DanFW3 (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 01:27
I agree - maximum effort required.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 09:42
From match report:
A combination of a bitterly cold Dublin day and the delaying of the Exiles’ early morning flight from Gatwick meant Welsh took time to warm to their task at Donnybrook.
Did they seriously do this as a day trip? If it was to save on one night of hotel costs then it appears to have been a very shortsighted decision.
A combination of a bitterly cold Dublin day and the delaying of the Exiles’ early morning flight from Gatwick meant Welsh took time to warm to their task at Donnybrook.
Did they seriously do this as a day trip? If it was to save on one night of hotel costs then it appears to have been a very shortsighted decision.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Mark W-J (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 13:05
I know we don't like to follow football's example, but in their European competitions the away team has to spend the night before the game in the country in which they're playing so as to minimise any travel-related disruption prior to kick-off. So when Manchester United played Wrexham a few years ago they could have stayed overnight in Cardiff or Swansea but weren't allowed to stay at home in England, 50 miles away from their destination in Wales.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 19:13
If the team did only travel over to Ireland on the day of the game then it is obvious they were not taking this game or for that matter any of this pointless competition seriously. However, who in their right mind would take this stupid & pointless farce seriously.
The RFU are not interested nor do they back or support this competition. If all the teams were to get together we could all toss a coin calling heads or tails and the winner would still win exactly what they win now absolutely nothing. We would all however save on the huge travelling costs touring the length and breadth of these wonderful islands. Scrap it now. PADDYTAF.
The RFU are not interested nor do they back or support this competition. If all the teams were to get together we could all toss a coin calling heads or tails and the winner would still win exactly what they win now absolutely nothing. We would all however save on the huge travelling costs touring the length and breadth of these wonderful islands. Scrap it now. PADDYTAF.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: CwmRheidol (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 19:24
Could the RFU put some of the millions of operating profit into this competition, rather than give the likes of Rob Andrew about £1/4 Million bonus?
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: paddytaf (IP Logged)
Date: 19/12/2011 20:04
Rob Andrew is a complete waste of space. That said though i hope he remains at the RFU forever. Because that way England will continue to muddle along in the dark just like Andrew does with his head so far up his own backside. PADDYTAF.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: CwmRheidol (IP Logged)
Date: 20/12/2011 08:37
absolutely, couldn't agree more
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: Ellie Crisell (IP Logged)
Date: 20/12/2011 12:35
I certainly don't take this cup seriously.
Re: B&I Cup - Pool Stage Final Weekend
Posted by: nld (IP Logged)
Date: 07/04/2012 17:38
Cross Keys through to final beating Pirates 20-16.
Final is to be hosted by Munster who beat Leinster 29-36 the other semi-final.
Final is to be hosted by Munster who beat Leinster 29-36 the other semi-final.
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