London Welsh v Saracens Preview
By Mark W-J
October 4 2012
With almost a quarter of the Premiership season gone, London Welsh have far exceeded expectation, collecting two wins in the opening month, and as a result we sit in 9th place, eight points ahead of the bottom club, Sale. It’s a measure of how much we’ve achieved in such as short space of time that last weekend’s losing bonus against Gloucester felt like three points lost rather than one gained.
The last round of fixtures before the Premiership takes a two week break for European competitions pits the Welsh against Saracens. Mark McCall’s side inflicted a first defeat of the season on champions Harlequins last weekend, winning 18-16 at the Stoop thanks to six penalties from England fly-half, Owen Farrell. They haven’t scored a try for 260 minutes, since Chris Ashton crossed on the hour mark in their second game of the season, a 23-16 win at Sale. The opening weekend suggested that they’d shaken off the image of playing dour but effective rugby, running in four tries in a 40-3 win over London Irish in the London Double Header. But since then they’ve reverted to type; a 9-9 draw with Leicester at Wembley was widely condemned as one of the most boring games in Premiership history, while they were out-fought by Exeter, 14-12 at a wet and windy Sandy Park. While some clubs take a cavalier approach, aiming to win games by scoring more points than their opponents, Sarries favour the more conservative methods - no matter how few points we score, we’ll make sure you score fewer. It may not be entertaining, but, boy, it’s effective. They won the Aviva Premiership title for the first time in 2010-11, beating Leicester 22-18 at Twickenham in front of over 80,000 fans, and holding the Tigers at bay through an incredible 32 phases after the 80 minutes had elapsed, and they have the best win:loss ratio of all of the Premiership clubs in the last three seasons.
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Owen Farrell kicking three of the 18 points
that beat Quins
London Welsh’s first ever fixture, in October 1885, was against London Scottish at Saracens’ then-home at Palmerston Road, Walthamstow. Formed in 1876, they had eleven different home grounds before settling at Bramley Road, Southgate, at the start of the 1939-40 season - although, following the outbreak of war, they didn’t actually play their first home game there for six years. They moved, initially to Enfield FC, upon the dawn of professionalism in 1995, but stayed for less than two years before settling at Vicarage Road, Watford, for the 1997-98 season. In recent years they have played games at Wembley, and this year will host matches at Stadium:MK and the King Baudouin Stadium (formerly known as the Heysel Stadium) in Brussels, plus one LV=Cup match at Bedford’s Goldington Road, before their new ground at Barnet is opened in February. Last year Sarries’ game with Harlequins at Wembley attracted a crowd of 83,761, yet the Allianz Park, as Barnet Copthall Stadium is to be renamed, has a capacity of just 10,000, making it the smallest ground in the Premiership. It seems strange that on one hand the club can go to such lengths to attract a world-record crowd for a one-off fixture, yet on the other build a stadium that means they effectively have to tell 88% of those present at Wembley that they’re not welcome at Barnet the following week if they enjoyed the experience and want to come again.
England winger Chris Ashton is Saracens’ top try-scorer this season with three of their five tries, but he’s also ‘enjoyed’ two spells in the sin-bin in the opening month of the season, as has flanker Kelly Brown. Ashton will have fond memories of playing the Welsh from his time at Northampton; he made his debut off the bench against us on the opening weekend of the 2007-08 season, scoring with his very first touch of the ball in rugby union following his cross-code switch from Wigan, and in the return at ODP ten days before Christmas he repeated the feat, after coming on as a 54th minute replacement for Neil Starling. Two of his current team-mates spent time on-loan at Welsh before making the grade at Vicarage Road: Alex Goode made three appearances (two starts) at the tail-end of the 2007-08 season, scoring in a 29-3 win over Doncaster, while Andy Saull played ten minutes off the bench in the opening match of the following season at Moseley. Gordon Ross, of course, spent two years with Sarries, scoring 79 points in seventeen Premiership appearances, while in the early years of professionalism we benefitted greatly from the experience of Andy Lee, Gregg Botterman and Steve Ravenscroft, who made a combined total of 283 appearances in the scarlet jersey.
Alex Goode
Three apearances on loan to LW in 2008
Saracens were our first opponents in league rugby way back in September 1987, when we won 23-7 at Bramley Road. It was our biggest league win of the season, as we finished ninth of twelve clubs in Courage Two with three wins and two draws from our eleven games, but the following season we lost nine, including 37-4 - our heaviest defeat of the campaign - at Southgate, as we were relegated and Sarries promoted. We have also met twice in the cup - in round two of the inaugural competition in 1972, which resulted in a 33-7 away win for Welsh, and a 14-3 first round victory at ODP six years later. The very first meeting of the two sides took place on 16th November 1895, after the club had been reformed after its demise at the end of the 1893-94 season, and resulted in a draw at our then home at Tufnell Park. The return fixture was played at Crouch End on 21st March 1896, the home side winning 9-0.
With Saracens seemingly unable to make the most of their talented backline - Goode, Ashton, Farrell, Brad Barritt and David Strettle have all been capped by England in the last year - many London Welsh fans fancy our chances of springing a surprise this weekend. Sarries’ strength-in-depth is such that Farrell shares fly-half duties with the Premiership’s all-time leading points scorer, Charlie Hodgson, while World Cup winning captain John Smit, who has 111 caps for the Springboks, hasn’t managed to force his way into the starting XV this season. The pack also contains former England internationals Matt Stevens and Steve Borthwick, as well as Mouritz Botha and Scotland’s Kelly Brown. There are concerns that injuries to key players such as Neil Briggs and Sonny Parker may leave Welsh exposed given our relatively small squad, but it’s likely that key players would have been rested for the upcoming Amlin and LV=Cup games as we prioritise Premiership survival above all else. We have as many wins as the combined might of the three teams below us in the table - Wasps, London Irish and Sale - but Wasps, in particular, have shown the importance of bonus points in keeping ahead of the rival teams in your own ‘mini-league’. They welcome Worcester to Adams Park on Sunday, so we know that we need to take something from our match in order to stop a gap from opening-up just above us in the table. But given that the experts told us we’d be cast adrift by this stage of the season, why shouldn’t we target the win?
Seb Jewell gets caught
by Gloucester's defence
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Quote:The Breakdown
Saracens have gone more than four hours without scoring a try in the Premiership, but they are third in the table and six penalties were enough to defeat the champions Harlequins at The Stoop last Sunday.
Winning justifies a team's approach, but in their previous two matches, against Leicester and Exeter, Sarries' reliance on kicks was not enough, drawing against the Tigers at Wembley and losing to the Chiefs. Had Nick Evans kicked a late penalty for Harlequins, Owen Farrell's six penalties would have mustered only a bonus point.
Four of Saracens' five tries came in the opening match against London Irish, a team that has yielded a try bonus point four times out of five this season, but they have only conceded three and it is the meanness of their defence, coupled with goal-kicking, that has taken them to third place.
Their five tries have come in the two matches that Charlie Hodgson has started at outside-half: in the three since that Owen Farrell has worn the No10 jersey, their return has been 13 penalties. A club that used to be noted for its wretched inconsistency has become probably the hardest team to beat in the Premiership.
Hodgson's two starts were against the sides who are bottom of the table, London Irish and Sale; Farrell played against three teams who went into their games against Saracens grouped in the top five of the table. If that would suggest Hodgson will start against London Welsh on Sunday, it also indicates that Saracens vary their tactics according to the quality of the opposition.
They have yet to play a match at home: London Welsh will be their fourth away fixture having entertained London Irish at Twickenham and Leicester at Wembley. They will not play at Vicarage Road until next month, when they entertain Wasps, and they are scheduled to play three league matches there before moving to Barnet in February.
Their five Premiership games so far have produced eight tries, easily the lowest return: Bath, with 14, are next, but is entertainment measured on the number of tries scored? Sarries' kicking duel with Leicester did not make compulsive viewing, two teams cancelling out each other, but the Tigers' match against Harlequins the following week, although it only produced one try, was absorbing.
Just as rugby union has been about all shapes and sizes, so styles have varied. It would be uninspiring if everyone played in the same manner: differences are nowhere near as marked as they once were, but there is a split between the hemispheres: New Zealand and Australia, fighting for every dollar, place more emphasis on attack than most teams in Europe.
Watching New Zealand's victory over Argentina in Buenos Aires last Sunday morning, a few hours after Bath and Sale had laboured through the last of the summer sunshine at the Recreation Ground, was almost to look at a different game such was the difference between off-loading and going to ground. Even the Pumas had a go.
Who dares wins or who dares sins? The All Blacks do not throw the ball about for the sake of it; there is method to their width and they will kick and kick again when the occasion demands. Their default position, though, is to trust in their skills and try to unpick defences.
There is something simple about the way they play, operating within a gameplan; players are not just empowered but are comfortable making decisions. Initiative is too often lacking in Premiership matches, as if players are happy to play within defined parameters.
Steve Diamond, the Sale chief executive, was quoted after the dismissal of the forwards coach, Steve Scott, last month following the Sharks' poor start to the season, as saying that coaches were 10-a-penny. His club should know, having got through quite a number in the last few years, but top-drawer coaches, the ones who get the maximum out of their players, are in far shorter supply.
"The boring, unthinking coach continually preaches about mistakes," Carwyn James once wrote in the Guardian. "The creative coach invites his players to make mistakes. Adventure and error go together. I loved Lewis Jones's way – 'I may concede two, but I'll score four!' And: 'The most telling of any pre-match team-talk consists of just three words: Think! Think! Think!'"
As Saracens celebrated their victory at Harlequins, the final session of the Ryder Cup was about to start in Chicago. The first two days had been largely dominated by the brilliance of many of the American players, mixing boldness and skill to telling effect. Europe stayed in contention thanks largely to the ebullient Ian Poulter and armed themselves with his attitude in the singles.
Pressure is a word used in all sports, but the likes of Poulter, Justin Rose, Luke Donald, Paul Lawrie, Rory McIlroy and Sergio Garcia went on the attack, as the Americans had on the previous two days, and seized the initiative. Their boldness was rewarded and the greater the pressure, the more audacious the golfers became: both teams set out to win the Ryder Cup, not rely on the mistakes of opponents.
There are three years to the next World Cup, which is being hosted by England. The All Blacks remain, by some distance, the leading team in the world, strong collectively and individually, to the point where they are not stressed about the prospect of losing Dan Carter or Richie McCaw.
Theirs is the spirit of the Ryder Cup, together with this summer's Olympic Games and Paralympics, talented sportsmen and women reaching as far as they can. As the England head coach, Stuart Lancaster, contemplates this autumn's internationals and beyond, can he inspire those of his players who are being held back in the Premiership, who are not expressing their talents fully, to aim as high?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:10:04:11:15:07 by Dragons' Den.
Had Farrell kicked his penalties at Wembley, Tigers wouldn't have got a bonus point either.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:Convex Hull
I would just point out that no other AP team has beaten Quins at home in the last 18 months. The last team that did it was ... Saracens.
I researched that info when I was writing the preview. I think you'll find that Leicester won 43-33 at the Stoop in April of this year.
Assistant Referees: Paul Dix, Nigel Carrick. TMO: Graham Hughes
Good ref in my opinion
my wife (when I was courting her) used to live in Sandford-on-Thames so although I have never been to the Kassam itself I've seen many films in the cinema, played bowling and eaten in the Chinese "over the road"
Quote:Mark W-JQuote:Convex Hull
I would just point out that no other AP team has beaten Quins at home in the last 18 months. The last team that did it was ... Saracens.
I researched that info when I was writing the preview. I think you'll find that Leicester won 43-33 at the Stoop in April of this year.
Yes, forgot that one - but they also lost quite convincingly to Quins a couple weeks back.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
1) A very good performance.
2) A bonus point minimum.
3) A win we're in Heaven.
4) A bonus point win we're in Dreamland.
5) SARRIES can have what ever they want. But we must get something. As always Mark W-J a fantastic preview. PADDYTAF.
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
Replacements: 16. Greg Bateman, 17. Tom Bristow, 18. Arthur Joly, 19. Kirill Kulemin*, Alfie To’oala*, 21. Nick Runciman, 22. Ryan Davis, 23. Seb Jewell
Welsh v Saracens this Sunday, another club which boasts Big Gav as one of its legends. 4 appearances, 3 from the bench, 0 points. Massive.
15 Chris Wyles
14 David Strettle
13 Joel Tomkins
12 Owen Farrell
11 James Short
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Rhys Gill
2 John Smit
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick (c)
5 George Kruis
6 Will Fraser
7 Andy Saull
8 Jackson Wray
16 Jamie George
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Mouritz Botha
20 Nick Fenton-wells
21 Neil De Kock
22 Kameli Ratuvou
23 Duncan Taylor
'
Short and sweet this one but I believe this should give Welsh a very good idea of how they might stay up this season. Sarries play one way. Kick, chase, defend and kick penalties. They squeeze teams into corners and give them little options to play. They have good tactics, which are well-rehearsed and delivered generally to script resulting in win. If Welsh could produce this standard rugby they might stand a chance but Sarries are too well drilled in this format.
Prediction: Sarries win by at least 10 pts.'
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
I've never seen him play a full match yet and don't know his style.
Go Gav Go
I was at BATH and SCARLETS and in both games he was playing very well. Lyn most certainly knows how to coach and i'm confident that Gavin will deliver. PADDYTAF.
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
Having said that... we beat Exeter, who beat Saracens and put five tries on Quins this afternoon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:10:07:16:31:01 by londonbound.
Quote:londonbound
The penalties conceed are becoming an issue, 7 today? Saries got the one try! Then we conceed too many points!
It was 7 kicked penalties, that's 21 points.
I wasn't there, but were they legitimate penalties? Are we getting the rub or are we being treated harshly?
Genuine question, my grapes are sweet, not sour.
We're not a bad side & are improving every game.
Great full length of the pitch move to score (Arscott) today
TV replay showed that TJ was correct about the lineout. Sarries player had foot on the line just before he caught it (and didn't move that foot) and therefore didn't carry the ball out. No idea how the TJ spotted out from that angle so it may have been a lucky (unlucky?) guess.
Thought it was a fantastic effort by the whole squad. Gavin's 50+ metre near miss will have scared a few in this league.
Hope Neil de Kock will be OK
Again, I've come away from the match feeling Welsh were unlucky not to win, and the victims I dragged with me this week also were impressed - and will be coming again.
Goal line seAts in the front row, again, but at least we were spot on for te first try!
Can't make Saturday, but will be ack in place for the Bath match- hopefully with some more recruits in tow - part of my personal mission to raise the gate by five week on week...
Also, Neil de Kock left on his own with seemingly no ill effects....amazing!
Thought we made too many handling errors , but thought once again the pack was outstanding.
Not sure what to make of sarries, think they were a bit over-confident and didn't play their usual game.
Thought the ref and his assistants had a shocker, not so much what he missed(we can all miss things) B ut the stuff he actually chose not to make a decision on eg at half time,and ore o the decision to end the match when he did.
Once gain proud of the boys, and have to say the bonus points are always very welcome. But can't help feeling a little bitter that we seemed to be playing against 18 men today.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012:10:08:07:06:36 by chappers.
Fair play, the boys really are putting in some gutsy performances, the forwards and defence are two areas where we have improved beyond recognition. Although there is clearly some room for improvement elsewhere, yesterday we didn’t look quite as cohesive, a few silly errors here and there, but I put some of that down to the extra intensity Sarries bought to the game, our players seemed to have less thinking time.
I don’t want to criticise the match officials too much, it’s a tough job and I certainly couldn’t do it, but I get the impression they don’t think twice about penalising us, yet hesitate before penalising the more fancied opposition… this subconscious bias may be due to the perceived natural order, but hopefully will change with time.
But to balance it out - conceding so many penalties in kickable range, Dan George upending a player off the ball in the build-up to Hodgson's try, blatantly lying all over the ball at the breakdown, impeding the scrum-half when he tried to get to the breakdown... we should have had more yellows, and in the case of Jon Mills - who was arguably unfortunate to go so early in the game - a very costly second yellow.
well, I suppose, Mr McCall does know more about these things than most people.
Quote:Mark W-J
Mr Pearce was the ref for the match with London Scottish at ODP last year, which we nearly lost because he awarded a penalty against us at almost every single scrum.
But to balance it out - conceding so many penalties in kickable range, Dan George upending a player off the ball in the build-up to Hodgson's try, blatantly lying all over the ball at the breakdown, impeding the scrum-half when he tried to get to the breakdown... we should have had more yellows, and in the case of Jon Mills - who was arguably unfortunate to go so early in the game - a very costly second yellow.
I think that's a pretty fair assessment of what happened , as i said previously it wasn't so much the ref missing things but his lack of commitment to make crucial decisions at crucial times. He did miss a lot of infringements by our boys but failed to make brave decisions at crucial times on our behalf . No more so than at the end after awarding a penalty against sarries for collapsing the scrum and then failing to penalise them further for doing so a second and third time.
There were both saracens and Welsh fans booing the ref at the end. It's always a shame when such an exciting match hangs under a shadow of bad refereeing.
Mick Cleary is bound to be right about the five minute sub rule...but I've not heard of it before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:10:08:19:08:42 by DanFW3.
There were so many blatent offences which were let go, it became a farce where the players simply started to take the law into the own hands. The breakdown became a complete free-for-all with the players that were 'legal' looked strangely out of place!
And at the end, after a collapsed scrum, I was under the impression that the law says that the referee should complete the scrum before he could end the game. So it should have been reset until 'completed' ie the ball is played from the scrum, or the referee awards a penalty/free kick to one side or the other.
Quote:DanFW3
The Daiy Mail online report with several photos (Getty Images, but by the way good to see Dave Jackson on the touchle again) and a snarky comment from A N Other in the comments section with a familiar simian literary style. The meda reports generally don't back the ref and I guess he will get a warm welcome next time we meet him (not leas as he may strew his errors ou way next time).
Funnily enough, there's a lot of interesting commenting going on around the bazaars at the moment, including an otherwise interesting and supportive thread on the Bath board enlivened by a chap who seems convinced that we've got an average gate of about 1,000, and photos of the North Stand show the South Stand...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:10:08:19:54:17 by Oxfordwelsh.