London Welsh v London Irish Preview
By Mark W-J
November 29 2012
The home and away meetings of London Welsh and London Irish would have been the first fixtures many supporters of our two clubs looked for when our place in the Premiership was confirmed at the end of June. Our first meeting took place at Hampstead in November 1898 - in the Irish’s first ever game - and we haven’t played a competitive fixture since a Tetley Bitter Cup tie at ODP in November 2000.
London Irish are the youngest of the three ‘Exiles’ clubs, having been formed 13 years after Welsh and 19 years after London Scottish. Our first ever fixture was against Scottish in October 1885, and we not only provided the opposition for Irish’s first game, but have also shared ground-opening duties at five venues: Cambrian Park, Hampstead (19th November 1898), Lower Welsh Harp, Hendon (8th December 1900), Herne Hill (4th October 1919), Berrylands Road, Surbiton (1st October 1921) and Irish’s Sunbury base (5th December 1931). By coincidence, London Irish’s first home fixture in the series, on 27th January 1900, was also at Herne Hill. In recent years we have, of course, built a very strong relationship, with several players appearing on-loan at Welsh, including, in the last three years alone, Jack Moates and Max Lahiff (both of whom appeared in the play-off final against Cornish Pirates), Guy Armitage, Keiron Low, Leo Halavatu, Gary Johnson, Jon Fisher, Marland Yarde, Marcus Watson, Matt Garvey and Jamie Lennard. This will be the 132nd meeting of the clubs, with Welsh claiming 80 wins to-date to Irish’s 41, with ten games drawn, although we have met on four previous occasions in competitive fixtures - two league and two cup - and have lost every time. The league meetings took place in the first two years of league rugby, with Irish winning 13-6 at ODP in 1987-88 and 24-19 at The Avenue the following season. The first cup clash took place in a monsoon at Sunbury on 23rd December 1995, at a time when, under the leadership of Clive Woodward, the Irish were heading for promotion to Courage One (as the top flight was then called) while we were pursuing a second consecutive promotion to reclaim our place at level three. Irish won 21-3 that afternoon, Craig Raymond kicking a single penalty for Welsh, and five seasons later, on 11th November 2000, they won 33-10 in a last 16 tie in Richmond, with replacement fly-half Rich Mahoney scoring our only try late in the game.
Despite time on loan at LW
Max Lahiff now has 50 LI appearances to his name
Last week’s losing bonus point at Northampton keeps us four points ahead of our visitors, who themselves lead basement club Sale by five points. Irish have lost their last three league matches since pulling-off possibly the biggest shock of the season - our three wins notwithstanding - when they destroyed the previously unbeaten Saints, 39-17 at the Madejski. They could have beaten Quins in their next game, only to lose out to the most outrageous piece of fortune when Tom Casson appeared to knock-on twice in the act of scoring, only for the TMO to ascertain that the ball had been grounded legally - much to the surprise of the scorer and the disgust of the home supporters. But it was defeat at Sale in round eight which has caused the most concern, the Cheshire side recording their only league victory of the campaign so far with two first-half tries, and denying Irish a losing bonus point thanks to two late Danny Cipriani penalties. A home defeat to Exeter last Sunday was followed by an admission from coach Brian Smith that the club are facing a relegation battle, and gives a new dimension to this Saturday’s clash: for the first time this season, Welsh arguably go into the game as favourites.
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Players-eye view
Looking down the tunnel to the Kassam pitch
When Exeter won at Reading last weekend, they became the eighth of the twelve Premiership clubs to record an away win in the opening nine rounds of fixtures. The four teams who have yet to win on the road are the other teams around us in the bottom five - Wasps, Worcester, Irish and Sale. Irish have won only twice on their travels in the last two years - 34-20 at Sale in April 2011 and 25-16 at Worcester in April 2012 - and we also visit Worcester and entertain Wasps in December, a month which could come to define our season. With home form so important and away wins at a premium we need to collect two wins at the Kassam this month, especially as we have only four home fixtures in 2013. Two of those, however, are against Sale and Worcester, with the Warriors coming to Oxford on the final day of the season. Irish may be looking nervously over their shoulders now, but their last seven fixtures include visits from Wasps, Worcester, Sale and London Welsh, before they finish at Welford Road.
After nine rounds, London Irish have conceded more points (276) than any other club, although we have each scored 14 tries (better than Sale, Saracens and Bath; equal with Worcester) and conceded 25 (joint worst). While we have scored only 169 points - the second-lowest in the league after Sale’s paltry 113 - we are averaging 19 points per game; six more clubs, including Irish and three of the top five in Leicester, Northampton and Saracens, are averaging 21 or fewer, so if we can reduce the points conceded we have a chance of being highly competitive, as evidenced by our results to date, in which our six defeats have yielded three try-bonus points for the opposition (Leicester, Harlequins and Wasps) and three losing bonus points (versus Gloucester, Saracens and Northampton). We are one of only three clubs - Exeter and Gloucester are the others - who have scored a try in each of their last six Premiership matches.
Topsy Ojo - London Irish's all-time leading try scorer
in the Premiership with 41 in eight seasons
The opening three months of our debut Premiership campaign have produced plenty of memorable moments - our first win over Exeter, a first away win at Sale - as well as some - the defeat at the Stoop - that we would rather forget. There has been controversy - the penalty-try-that-should-have-been-but-wasn’t against Saracens - as well as delight and heartbreak in equal measures. But surely nothing can compare with the trials and tribulations of being a London Irish fan. A few months ago they were granted planning permission for a new state-of-the-art training facility just a few hundred yards from their current Sunbury base, along with highly controversial plans to develop the site in The Avenue for housing. The return of Australia & Ireland international player and England international coach Brian Smith, who had guided the club to the Premiership final and the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup during his first stint at the helm, at least partially compensated for the disappointment at seeing the likes of Bob Casey and Nick Kennedy (arguably the most under-rated second-row pairing of the modern era), Delon & Guy Armitage, Clarke Dermody, Faan Rautenbach, Paul Hodge, Adam Thompstone and Richard Thorpe heading for pastures new. And with the legendary Shaun Edwards arriving, albeit on a part-time basis, the fans were cautiously optimistic, despite the warnings from the so-called ‘experts’ that they would struggle in a transitional season. But only two wins from their opening nine fixtures, conceding over 40 points in each of the first three rounds, a four-try defeat to a Worcester side who hadn’t collected the full five points in a Premiership game since May 2008, and becoming the first team to lose to Sale this season all sit uncomfortably in the debit column, with only that stunning win over the Saints to offset against those negatives. At their flowing best there is no doubt that our fellow Exiles are a joy to behold, and you can’t help but wish that the real London Irish would please stand up. But not until next week, thank you.
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(You don't make up all these facts that you've dragged up do you?.... ;-) )
Quote:sportbilly42
You are an undisputed Oracle on all things rugby related and you tie them up brilliantly every week in a greatly crafted piece that makes a really good read. And this is another fine example....
(You don't make up all these facts that you've dragged up do you?.... ;-) )
Thanks Billy. I do sometimes wonder whether anyone would know or even care if I made up the occasional date or statistic, but I just can't bring myself to do it!
Referee: JP Doyle
Assistant referees: Paul Dix, Andrew Watson
Timekeeper (4th Official): Brian Abrahams
Assessor: Jerry Wallis
Replacements: 16. Greg Bateman, 17. Tom Bristow, 18. James Tideswell, 19. Matt Corker, 20. Alfie To’oala*, 21. Jamie Stevenson, 22. Alex Davies, 23. Seb Jewell.
* Denotes full international
London Irish team to face London Welsh:
15. Tom Homer; 14. Topsy Ojo*; 13. Sailosi Tagicakibau*; 12. Shane Geraghty*; 11. Anthony Watson; 10. Ian Humphreys; 9. Darren Allinson; 1. Max Lahiff; 2. Brian Blaney; 3. Leo Halavatau; 4. George Skivington; 5. Bryn Evans*; 6. Declan Danaher (Captain); 7.Matt Garvey; 8. Chris Hala'ufia*
Replacements: 16. Gerard Ellis; 17.Jerry Yanuyanutawa*; 18.Halani Aulika*; 19. Kieran Low; 20.Jebb Sinclair*; 21. Jamie Gibson; 22. Steven Shingler; 23. Jack Moates
*Denotes Internationals
iPhone users can easily post their photos at tomorrow's match (probably in The Priory as well if you want to give that a try!) and anyone can view them and comment. Full details at [www.rugbynetwork.net] and the stream can be viewed at [www.rugbynetwork.net]
Quote:Much as I hate to revel in their misery, that's good news for us.nld
Just coming up to half time and Sale are losing to Northampton 3-27.
Quins win 22-19
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:11:30:21:43:31 by nld.
Good luck saturday everyone.
Another 3 wins (or 12-15 points somehow) needed to be confident of staying up?
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
Far more important than the total for the relegated team is the points gained by the team that were second from bottom as that gives a safer target.
2005/06
Bristol 41
(Leeds 28)
2006/07
Worcester 34
(Northampton 33)
2007/08
Newcastle 34
(Leeds 12)
2008/09
Worcester 34
(Bristol 17)
2009/10
Sale 32
(Worcester 28)
2010/11
Newcastle 23
(Leeds 23)
2011/12
Wasps 33
(Newcastle 32)
On that basis 32-34 points should be enough.
In some ways that makes it worse - when you're cast totally adrift at the bottom at least it feels fairly just. Imagine a run in where 10/11/12 are only separated by a point each somewhere in the middle 30s and each of them has done well enough to stay up in a normal year - that has really got to hurt.
"GIVE THEM NO BALL OR BAD BALL WELSH"
AVERAGE DROP POINTS 23 (excluding () 27)
Falcons .......32
Leeds ..........23
Worcs .........28
Bristol .........17
Leeds ..........12
Saints ..........33
Leeds ...........27
Quins ...........38
Rotherham ....(3)
Bristol...........34
Leeds............28
Rotherham ...12
Bedford...........(3)
If similar is against wasps worcs welsh irish sale then....
Welsh .on 19 points have 5 similar fixtures = 39
Irish .. on 12 points have 4 similar fixtures = 28
Sale...on .6 points have 5 similar fixtures = 26
From my hazy post
Priory 
position that means Irish and Sale have to not only to get points against the bottom teams , they HAVE to turn over those in the Top 7. We meanwhile have a little more room for malechickenups!Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:02:19:58:12 by X~Pat.
The historic lows drop out of the calculation as the bottom team gain points as can be seen by the initial 23 changing to 27 .
(Once the season starts it is only the highest drop points that is an unknown )
Every game we win therefore makes their task so much harder- if we can win 4 more games they have to win 8 .. thats quite a challenge for them. Winning the home game against them becomes critical again ... its real 8 pointer ( 9 if we stop them getting a BP !) :-)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:03:12:04:38 by Newest Sir Benfro.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:03:13:38:42 by dottigirl.
Quote:Newest Sir Benfro
As Sale are 13 points behind us you could say that they need to win 4 more games than us during the remainder of the season to pass us, assuming that we acquire similar number of BP's.
Every game we win therefore makes their task so much harder- if we can win 4 more games they have to win 8 .. thats quite a challenge for them. Winning the home game against them becomes critical again ... its real 8 pointer ( 9 if we stop them getting a BP !) :-)
I could but I wo'nt !!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:03:13:42:54 by X~Pat.
Quote:Newest Sir Benfro
As Sale are 13 points behind us you could say that they need to win 4 more games than us during the remainder of the season to pass us, assuming that we acquire similar number of BP's.
Every game we win therefore makes their task so much harder- if we can win 4 more games they have to win 8 .. thats quite a challenge for them. Winning the home game against them becomes critical again ... its real 8 pointer ( 9 if we stop them getting a BP !) :-)
It comes down to two questions:
1) How many more games do we expect (not hope!) LW will win this season?
2) Do we think that Sale can better that by 3 or 4?
Quote:
Strikes me as unfortunate rather than deliberate. 115kg of Hala'ufia driving back 92kg of Jewell, no wonder Seb's feet left the ground! Hala'ufia certainly didn't drive him down towards the pitch and (other than try and hold him off the ground horizontally) I'm not sure what he could have done to prevent it. The actions of the LI player and the LW team afterwards were very telling.
Technically it was possibly a red card offence but I'd hope there is no further ban.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:03:14:41:26 by nld.
Quite clearly it was accidental, and no malice/intent behind it - one of those where common sense says let it go, and the rule book begs to differ....?
Quote:Newest Sir Benfro
I'm starting to become obsessed with the permutations now....not that I'm in any way desperate for us to stay up !!!
Noooooo do'nt.........
Stick with OUR REAL CURRENT POSITION 19 and the moving average drop
The reality is.....
WELSH 19
IRISH 12
SALE 6
Enjoy the ride!
If there is a ban I wouldn't say it warrants a long one, but messages need to be sent about tackled players landing on heads. Messages also need to be sent about taking players out of lineouts, tackling without arms and "clearing out" at rucks, they're just personal thoughts..
Seb took the ball at pace and therefore an tackle above the waist from someone that size was always going to send him backwards. It's a consequence of the game having players of different shapes, sizes and speeds. Intent is almost impossible for a referee to judge in a split second but doesn't it come into play when the disciplinary panel look at the footage?
Adding to the list in the above post, I'd like to see players that drop their own lineout jumpers penalised!
Quote:Yet only a few days ago there was the argument about whether Caprice was deserving of a yellow....Ealingnye
Messages also need to be sent about taking players out of lineouts, tackling without arms and "clearing out" at rucks, they're just personal thoughts..
Perhaps it could or should have been a red instead? Can't have it both ways (or can we?)
Difficult to argue that it wasn't given that he took someone out 'in the air' and Elliott ended up landing full square flat on the front of his face, with his neck crumpled and had no support to the ground to control his fall. Lucky to walk away unhurt. But it was unworthy of further punishment and 'part of the game' according to the citing board.
I still think it was a well executed tackle but suffered from being a mismatch of opposing weights, velocities and momentum. I'm sure there's a mathematical equation or physics formula that would show rotation of the smaller force is inevitable.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:03:23:51:29 by sportbilly42.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:04:01:10:56 by dottigirl.
[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]
He was reckless in my mind because he made no effort to mitigate the risk of Seb landing upside down and in fact lands partially on top of him. With his previous record I think he might get a lengthy ban ?
Joe Marler (Quins) - In assessing this, the panel took account of the fact that Mr Marler’s blow was an intentional one, to the face, directed at a man who was on the ground and who was in a position which made him vulnerable. In these circumstances, the Panel considered the blow was petulant and cynical and of sufficient severity to meet the requisite “red card” threshold.
Phil Dowson (LI) - We accept (by majority) that the Player did not deliberately lift Goode into the air. He intended to drive Goode backwards, but the dynamics of the contact
between a large and a relatively small man colliding at speed, meant that Goode was lifted off his feet and moved into a horizontal position. The Player then deliberately let go because he believed that if he maintained the contact,
Goode would have been tipped upside down.
James Hudson (Newcastle) - Taking a player out in the air. The Panel’s observations in relation to Entry Point and Sanction can be summarised as follows:
(a) The offending was reckless and not intentional
I suspect we all have slightly different interpretations of what actually happened. The only important view is that of the panel who have dished out a 5 week ban. [www.therugbypaper.co.uk]
Snedds ‏@CaptainSneddon
GIF: 5 week ban for Chris Hala'Ufia for this tackle on @SebbyJ10
Tackle 1
Snedds ‏@CaptainSneddon
GIF: And 3 weeks for Matt Banahan for this high tackle on Anthony Allen #SparkedOut
Tackle 2
Madness.
Although Hala'ufia showed bad technique, I think Banahan's was much worse.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012:12:05:00:25:18 by dottigirl.
[">www.youtube.com]